This can improve the game so much

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This can improve the game so much

Postby itaicool » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:49 am

So I had this idea which would really help improve spotting scumreading which isn't actually a change to game mechanics but its a accessibility and readability change.

The Idea: When someone is voted up on the trial people that voted this person will get an icon next to their name, I was thinking a blue letter icon but anything can work, this will work similary to how when you douse someone as arsonist they get an icon next to their name so you can easily see who is doused, with my proposed change if people voted someone on trial everyone will be able to easily see without a hassle who voted that person and who didn't without having to sort all of the names in the living players.

So for example if 7 people voted someone each of the people that voted get that icon next to their name and anyone that didn't vote them up won't get it, once the trial is over (either a lynch or a pardon) it will disappear and will only reappear when someone is voted on trial again. All this change does is making it easier to see information that is already accessiable but as of right now is quite an hassle to read. hope this change can be implemented
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:24 am

yea, town needs more advantages, its too hard to win as town in this mode. This way, jailor knows who to jail without thinking too much, TIs know who to check without having to pay attention to chat and TKs can start blasting.
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby itaicool » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:01 am

kyuss420 wrote:yea, town needs more advantages, its too hard to win as town in this mode. This way, jailor knows who to jail without thinking too much, TIs know who to check without having to pay attention to chat and TKs can start blasting.



I think you misread my post, this is not going to a single mode it will affect every game mode (the game in general), everyone will have access to this and this feature again doesn't add any new information or advantage except being able to easily read, you don't get more information than before, the information is just reperesented to you in a way that is easier to read, everything I written is already possible to do the only difference is you need to spend alot of time reading every single name of the list instead of being represented by an icon, its like the arsonist with douse update, all it did was make it easier for arsonist to be able to tell who they doused withour having to remember or write it down on paper, all this feature is going to do is make the game easier to be read and for information to represented in less of a mess
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:01 am

kyuss420 wrote:yea, town needs more advantages, its too hard to win as town in this mode. This way, jailor knows who to jail without thinking too much, TIs know who to check without having to pay attention to chat and TKs can start blasting.


It's not about Town nerfs or scum buffs. Besides the fact that Elo can easily take care of winrate disparities, players shouldn't be punished because their computer is laggy or they read too slowly. Right now I think the phases are too quick, but I get that many people don't want to spend 30+ minutes per game. This change would mitigate many of the problems caused by the quick phases without actually making the game longer. So /support from me.
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby Dragnier » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:34 am

This idea is nice, although right now the same results can be achieved by just paying attention. The ability to take notes of these small details during gameplay and quickly analyze them for decision making is what gives that edge to some players over others.

If you want to continue exploring this idea, you could improve it by instead of just an icon next to the player name, it can be a number showing the voting order. So if player 7 is called to the stand and 5 people vote him up, instead of 5 blue icons it could be five 1-2-3-4-5 showing the order in which he was voted.

But I must agree with kyuss420, this change helps more the good roles than evils. I would personally also leave it as it is right now.
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby superdog551 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:14 am

It's a good idea and I don't see how it is too helpful to either side, it just simplifies things. Anyone can scroll through the chat and see who voted for who, this just saves time and makes it easier. It doesn't give anyone an advantage.

/support
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby kyuss420 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:44 am

superdog551 wrote:It's a good idea and I don't see how it is too helpful to either side, it just simplifies things. Anyone can scroll through the chat and see who voted for who, this just saves time and makes it easier. It doesn't give anyone an advantage.

/support


Didnt say it was a bad idea... it really isnt, but it gives a huge advantage to town....players can be lazy, instead of paying attention, calling out anyone who didnt vote, instantly, and VFRing them next, straight off the bat. It offers evil roles absolutely no advantage (and a clear disadvantage), and as stated in the OPs post ''Can help improve scumreading''.

I realise anyone can scroll through the chat and see who voted what, but will they? Will they manage their night phase time good enough to do it fast enough?

Theres a huge difference, in sneakily not voting in an 8v4, and destroying the abiltity to skip the vote without shining a bright spotlight on the player...... day 2 - 8 votes on the GF, trial phase, defence phase, last words....big blue dot pointing out 8 remaining townies....who to target next is an absolute no brainer.

So yea it ''improves'' the game, but only if you rolled town.
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:52 pm

kyuss420 wrote:
superdog551 wrote:It's a good idea and I don't see how it is too helpful to either side, it just simplifies things. Anyone can scroll through the chat and see who voted for who, this just saves time and makes it easier. It doesn't give anyone an advantage.

/support


Didnt say it was a bad idea... it really isnt, but it gives a huge advantage to town....players can be lazy, instead of paying attention, calling out anyone who didnt vote, instantly, and VFRing them next, straight off the bat. It offers evil roles absolutely no advantage (and a clear disadvantage), and as stated in the OPs post ''Can help improve scumreading''.

I realise anyone can scroll through the chat and see who voted what, but will they? Will they manage their night phase time good enough to do it fast enough?

Theres a huge difference, in sneakily not voting in an 8v4, and destroying the abiltity to skip the vote without shining a bright spotlight on the player...... day 2 - 8 votes on the GF, trial phase, defence phase, last words....big blue dot pointing out 8 remaining townies....who to target next is an absolute no brainer.

So yea it ''improves'' the game, but only if you rolled town.


It's not creating any new information. If anything, it prevents players from making blunders. I don't want to win because my opponent missed something that they should have seen; I want to win because I made the right plays. You might disagree, but I would rather play a game that involves complex strategic plays over quick thinking and making sure not to miss something obvious. I have always advocated for longer phases, but this has many of the benefits of longer phases without one of the largest downsides, which is the fact that it would take longer to play games.
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby kyuss420 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:47 am

players making blunders is a strategy exploitative players can utilise as an evil faction....eg. causing optimal players to make a suboptimal move, its not a game of deduction, as such, for evil players, so balancing the different playstyles needed from 1 faction to the other, means slight advantages on one side can cause big disadvantages on the other side.

If town is playing optimally, they will be VFRing heavily, even if an evil is already outed, eg. they may know the framer, but the sheriff is dead so they want to find the MK instead. (even more so in coven modes where 1 role outpowers another - an outed Medusa cant do anything if the CL is dead, or Late game Hex Master can obliterate the town even if CL is alive).

I just feel its too easy, especially when its near even majority, to spot the evils when players are being highlighted, especially if its late votes blinking on.....you cant spot late votes in the chat box. Or even when the timer is ticking down. Time management during night phase is a skill in itself... I also thinks it makes jailors job much much easier....just click on a non highlighted player during voting phase, instead of paying attention to and reading the chat....
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:19 am

kyuss420 wrote:players making blunders is a strategy exploitative players can utilise as an evil faction....eg. causing optimal players to make a suboptimal move, its not a game of deduction, as such, for evil players, so balancing the different playstyles needed from 1 faction to the other, means slight advantages on one side can cause big disadvantages on the other side.

If town is playing optimally, they will be VFRing heavily, even if an evil is already outed, eg. they may know the framer, but the sheriff is dead so they want to find the MK instead. (even more so in coven modes where 1 role outpowers another - an outed Medusa cant do anything if the CL is dead, or Late game Hex Master can obliterate the town even if CL is alive).

I just feel its too easy, especially when its near even majority, to spot the evils when players are being highlighted, especially if its late votes blinking on.....you cant spot late votes in the chat box. Or even when the timer is ticking down. Time management during night phase is a skill in itself... I also thinks it makes jailors job much much easier....just click on a non highlighted player during voting phase, instead of paying attention to and reading the chat....

Or if you are scum, just vote for your scumbuddy if it looks inevitable that they'll be put on the stand. This change would only improve Town winrates because it would make it easier for players to see information that is already public.

If someone suggested to make the chatbox smaller, would you support that change? It would lower Town winrates but it would also make it more difficult to read and type in the chat, which would cause players to miss things more often if the chat is going fast. It's not fun to play a game where the outcome could change because one team wasn't able to use a piece of information that they should have access to.
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby Dragnier » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:10 am

Let me raise you this to improve your suggestion in a more "fair" way.

You could suggest to add the option to Flag players. This means, the game allows you to label a player with a custom mark, or text, that only you can see.
So when players vote, you can manually flag the players that voted, and you can have that visual reminder you are looking for to make your decisions. You can add or remove flags whenever you want.

This flags could also be used to label your own results or insights. You think someone is susp? You can label him as "susp" to remind you to keep an eye on him. If you are framer, you can flag your targets as "framed" to remind you who have you already framed. You could use colored flags to mark players that support/push each other.

Adding flags will depend entirely on your skill, and can give you the visual advantage you are looking for. This will be more fair, as the game isn't doing it automatically for you. Also flags can be used by any faction and for any purpose, being useful for everyone. As you do it manually, you can make mistakes, and be mislead by your own mistakes too.
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby dolphina » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:27 pm

YES PLEASE

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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby kyuss420 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:59 am

alex1234321 wrote:Or if you are scum, just vote for your scumbuddy if it looks inevitable that they'll be put on the stand. This change would only improve Town winrates because it would make it easier for players to see information that is already public.

If someone suggested to make the chatbox smaller, would you support that change? It would lower Town winrates but it would also make it more difficult to read and type in the chat, which would cause players to miss things more often if the chat is going fast. It's not fun to play a game where the outcome could change because one team wasn't able to use a piece of information that they should have access to.


I do vote my scum mates, if its inevitable theyre being lynched, but if theres a possible afk townie, and equal majority is 1 night away, i wont.

I actually think the chat box should be bigger......but even then, In my experience most players dont use the clear information thats available to them anyway. In evil factions, players dont pass on useful information in night chat. And 75% of towns think everyone is lying anyway....

But my point wasnt about making town win rates higher or lower.....my point was about nuetralising exploitative playstyles, which only leads to metas being created around optimal playstyles....which can make for worse games.
Jailor didnt jail a clear non voter? ''jailor is TT, lynch them!''. Didnt shoot that non voter as vigi? ''hes not vigi cos Deodat didnt vote and hes still alive!'' etc. etc.

I mean optimal game theory exists in every game - the theory that if you play in an optimal way, statistically you will win more than you lose - in ToS its moves like executing a non voter...statistically, more often than not, the non voter will be scum, so over 100 games, you will execute scum more often than town (even if you do it blindly), which will improve your win rate...of course you wont hit scum 100% of the time, but losses dont matter because there will be more wins than losses, causing an increase.
Last edited by kyuss420 on Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby Brilliand » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:28 am

alex1234321 wrote:It's not about Town nerfs or scum buffs. Besides the fact that Elo can easily take care of winrate disparities, players shouldn't be punished because their computer is laggy or they read too slowly. Right now I think the phases are too quick, but I get that many people don't want to spend 30+ minutes per game. This change would mitigate many of the problems caused by the quick phases without actually making the game longer. So /support from me.


The current ELO system does not address winrate disparities between factions. It only addresses winrate disparities between players. In fact, it has a flaw where if the Town wins the majority of games, the ELO of all players gradually increases based on how often they play, even for players that individually aren't very good.
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby itaicool » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:39 am

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:It's not about Town nerfs or scum buffs. Besides the fact that Elo can easily take care of winrate disparities, players shouldn't be punished because their computer is laggy or they read too slowly. Right now I think the phases are too quick, but I get that many people don't want to spend 30+ minutes per game. This change would mitigate many of the problems caused by the quick phases without actually making the game longer. So /support from me.


The current ELO system does not address winrate disparities between factions. It only addresses winrate disparities between players. In fact, it has a flaw where if the Town wins the majority of games, the ELO of all players gradually increases based on how often they play, even for players that individually aren't very good.


But thats an issue with every online team game with ranked system, bad players can always get carried by better players on their team without being actually good
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby Brilliand » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:33 am

itaicool wrote:But thats an issue with every online team game with ranked system, bad players can always get carried by better players on their team without being actually good


Sure, but I would hope that not all such games develop ELO inflation as a result. It isn't that hard to design a system where the bad players lose just as much ELO from the times when they're placed on the losing team as they gain from the times when they're places on the winning team, and so don't get any net gains without effort.
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:04 am

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:It's not about Town nerfs or scum buffs. Besides the fact that Elo can easily take care of winrate disparities, players shouldn't be punished because their computer is laggy or they read too slowly. Right now I think the phases are too quick, but I get that many people don't want to spend 30+ minutes per game. This change would mitigate many of the problems caused by the quick phases without actually making the game longer. So /support from me.


The current ELO system does not address winrate disparities between factions. It only addresses winrate disparities between players. In fact, it has a flaw where if the Town wins the majority of games, the ELO of all players gradually increases based on how often they play, even for players that individually aren't very good.


Step 8 of this description seems to imply that there is a winrate modifier although I think it would be cleaner to incorporate it in the expected winrate portion of the calculation. And Elo inflation can easily be fixed by changing the K-factor for Town and Mafia. Ignoring Neutrals, making Mafia's K-factor 9/4 times Town's would fix Elo inflation. Witch and Executioner make it slightly more complicated, but ignoring them shouldn't be an issue as long as their expected winrates are calibrated properly.
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Re: This can improve the game so much

Postby Brilliand » Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:41 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
Brilliand wrote:The current ELO system does not address winrate disparities between factions. It only addresses winrate disparities between players. In fact, it has a flaw where if the Town wins the majority of games, the ELO of all players gradually increases based on how often they play, even for players that individually aren't very good.


Step 8 of this description seems to imply that there is a winrate modifier although I think it would be cleaner to incorporate it in the expected winrate portion of the calculation. And Elo inflation can easily be fixed by changing the K-factor for Town and Mafia. Ignoring Neutrals, making Mafia's K-factor 9/4 times Town's would fix Elo inflation. Witch and Executioner make it slightly more complicated, but ignoring them shouldn't be an issue as long as their expected winrates are calibrated properly.


Yes, that would fix ELO inflation; but it isn't fixed right now.

I'm unsure whether applying that fix and then relying on the winrate modifier would be sufficient. My preference would be to have a separate "town ELO" and "mafia ELO" for each player, to address how differently the two factions play. With only the fixes you propose, it would still be possible to get to high ELO overall by excelling at only one faction or the other, so long as there exist other players with the opposite bias to keep the winrate modifier from going completely crazy.
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