VIP easier for Coven

[philip1077]

Nobody plays Coven ranked or Classic or Mafia Returns, the only popular Coven is the rotating game modes, currently VIP and Lovers Mode. I find in VIP Coven NEVER wins. The town is just too over powered, idk what it is, but Coven just never wins and it sucks. Finding out who the VIP is impossible for the Coven since they don't have Investigating roles such as Consig for Mafia. Finding the VIP is just a lucky strike, that is, if you don't get rekt by the Crus... or the Trapper... or that Tracker who just happens to see you visited a guy who claims poisoned. VIP is just too easy for town, can you make it more competitive at least? Thanks

[Brilliand]

VIP mode kinda reverses the standard formula: it's the Coven that needs to "scumread" the Town. Guess who the VIP is and you win, almost instantly.

I doubt that the Town has gotten so good at hiding the VIP as to be impossible to read.

[JacksonVirgo]

Considering I play VIP/Lovers a lot, I have a few opinions on this.

Coven 'never' wins because they don't communicate effectively and they don't use their roles in combination with one another and (something that gets me all rattled at times) they don't use their own roles in a way that maximizes its effectiveness.

In my experience in playing I have made a list of the most effective tactics for me to play in VIP but of course, it's situational.

I will just say the best uses that I've found for the two Coven roles that are in every game.

Medusa is very bad late game but incredibly powerful early game where nobody knows each other. If the Medusa does a really strong bait D1 and CL chooses to control a random into them you could get a lot of claim space which Coven DOES NOT have in the VIP rolelist (if you do that, to minimise risk, have the PM heal the CL). They are the last to have the Necronomicon so after the first few nights, they are useless so throw them under the bus and push them to either throw suspicion off another important role like Poisoner or Potion Master or just to confirm yourself as town. Pretty much any Coven role that can kill a specific target is more important than this role in this gamemode.

Coven Leader is by far the most powerful and most important Coven role in this gamemode. Crusader almost always claims 'On VIP' D1 and you can use that to your advantage. You can control them off of VIP and use another Coven role to sweep town for the VIP. "But what about if another Crusader is on them?!", did you know Crusader gives Powerful protection? Control them into yourself and you'll be good (make sure other Coven are not on you such as PM healing because they will probably die). Keeping the TP off of the VIP is a smart move, but depending on the situation, another tactic may be useful.

Potion Master is important because they can heal a Coven if they're going for a risky attack and they can attack a practically confirmed VIP while the Coven Leader controls the Crusader or TP away. The Investigation ability isn't very important in this game-mode.

Though outside of good ways of playing your specific roles, there are some things that every Coven role can do and that is town reading.

VIP mode kinda reverses the standard formula: it's the Coven that needs to "scumread" the Town. Guess who the VIP is and you win, almost instantly.

I doubt that the Town has gotten so good at hiding the VIP as to be impossible to read.

Brilliand is correct in saying that it reverses the standard formula and you can use the fact that EVERY town knows who the VIP is to your advantage. Unless they gamethrow, you can bet that the Tracker and Sheriff will never visit the VIP. Neither will an Escort, or a TP (excluding Crus) if the Crusader is alive. If a Psychic uses 'VIP' in their results they are likely not VIP and thus you can use their results to narrow down who isn't the VIP. If somebody is not grilled when having their name on an evil Psychic vision, they could be VIP. Use that to narrow down your list of who is the VIP and once you've found them, control away the Crusader and whack them with an attack.

Also if there's one person nobody's ever pushing, take suspicion onto them as being the VIP and act accordingly. Also if you don't control the Crusader away and the either the Pirate or a fellow coven dies to Crusader (if the Pirate keeps a will), you pretty much know who's the VIP so control away.

This is just from my experience and when I am playing with these in mind and when Coven do what I suggest I tend to win quite often. If you disagree or want to add something to this please lemme know.

[JacksonVirgo]

philip1077, how would you suggest changing it to make it 'easier' for Coven? More claim space?

[MysticMismagius]

philip1077, how would you suggest changing it to make it 'easier' for Coven? More claim space?

I'm not philip, but this. If your role list doesn't have any RT, it's usually a bad role list. There's no room for the Coven to claim anything unless Medusa gets ultra lucky.

[kyuss420]

philip1077, how would you suggest changing it to make it 'easier' for Coven? More claim space?

I'm not philip, but this. If your role list doesn't have any RT, it's usually a bad role list. There's no room for the Coven to claim anything unless Medusa gets ultra lucky.

Coven really dont need claim space, they need to claim the TP slots to get the TPs to out themselves (and then kill them). The role list has 2 RT TPs.

Its not a last man standing mode. If you play it like it is and try to outclaim town, you are going to lose 95% of the time.

Problems I see isnt that town is overpowered....I mean, Im no.2 on the Coven Leader leaderboards, with over 200 CL wins, (so constantly beating town is highly possible) problem is people dont know how to use the coven roles, they are too scared to hit the TPs that claim, and end up getting picked off via the psy vision... I mean, you cant kill a VIP while theres a crusader alive, yet Ive seen CLs hit the VIP 3 nights in a row, knowing that hes protected. (only time you should do that is if VIP is crus and theres an unknown TP on them... keep sending them to themself until they hit that TP)

Ive had known VIPs, with crus being the last TP alive, and my PM kills the psy instead of the crus. Town had claimed, we were both outed the next day, even with psy dead, he was lynched and then I needed 2 nights to win.... if he killed crus and then got hung, VIP would of been wide open for me and we would of won.


Every night that coven dont kill a TP is a wasted night for them. Every night CL controls randomly is a wasted night for coven, thats just an extra night your gonna need to kill the VIP, that you probably wont get

[kyuss420]

rolled coven 5 times today, won 4 of them. CL, CL, Hex Master, CL and lost as medusa.

The match I lost, I rolled medusa. Claimed crus day 1, 2 crusaders and a doc visited me n1, all stoned, rip TPs. Day 2 I taunt the psychic (who called for TP day 1) claiming he was baiting.. no psy cc, so Im voted up. I claim vigi and I was CL baiting. Vigi ccs (like a noob) and Im lynched. dont care... best possible start anyone could ask for. (in hindsight, maybe I should of made the trapper cc me)
N2 - CL jumps on the vigi claim, and controls them....to the Pot Master (Ikr..wtf??), poisoner dies to pirate, pot master obviously dies to vigi... day 3 and 3 dead coven, town blunders around, n3 CL hits GA with the vigi, but has no claim for psy vision...rip.

BMG cant fix stupid, you cant make this mode any easier and still keep it interesting. You can have a perfect start, and if your team dont have a clue they will screw it up.

If you want it easier for coven, use coven scrolls, practice the roles, remember what works and discard what doesnt. If you know how to use town roles, you know where the town roles are going to be, and if youre CL, you can counter those town plays quite easily. Its not going to get any easier for you by doing the same random things over and over. If you want help, theres some good strategies for coven in the strategy section, have a read and work around them.

[philip1077]

I would say make it easier by making Tracker a RT spot, it's minor, but sometimes that huge claim space is all it takes. Or make it a TS spot.

[kyuss420]

I would say make it easier by making Tracker a RT spot, it's minor, but sometimes that huge claim space is all it takes. Or make it a TS spot.

Tracker is kind of important to counter the CL controlling TPs to Medusa n1 (If tracker has any idea on how to play the role)

the RT slot is a valid suggestion, but the optimal play would be to lynch the RT claim, (if inno the RT cc would be shot by vigi) giving coven only 1 extra night (which is huge to a pro coven) but wont make the slightest difference to a coven that is playing it like a regular mode and trying to outclaim town. Claim space is only needed if you f**ked up early.

VIP is a great mode, but coven is punished hard for small mistakes, but in theory, if there was no vigi, the whole coven could claim day 2 and still win, if they knew what they were doing. It takes 5 days to lynch the entire coven and 3 nights to kill all of the TPs, If the VIP is a TP, theres no reason coven should lose except for GA saves, vigi shots and pirates.

So thats your base for optimal plays. you need 4 nights to win and town need 5 days (without vigi). Every night you dont kill a TP is +1 (an extra night you need). Every day a coven isnt lynched is a -1 (an extra night you get) Vigi/pirate kills a coven +1, Coven dies to TP +1, town mislynch a TP -1, pirate/vig/TP kills a TP -1, 2 cruses kill each other -2, GA saves you twice -2, GA saves a TP +1 per save, you get RBed +1 (unless you are CL or necro), TP gets transed +1.


The best suggestion I can think of, which has its pros and cons, would be to get rid of RC and keep Hex Master as a permanent role. But that is a huge nerf to town.
PM kills crus n1 while CL sends the ''Im on crus'' claim to Medusa, means VIP is wide open for HM with the necronomicon from n3 onwards in most cases.