Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils win.

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Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils win.

Postby Atalanta8 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:44 pm

I f***ing kill BG and vig in one go. Prevent Jailor from killing evil. Then evils vote me for shits and giggles and that evil I saved from exe wins the game and I lose cause some people are jerks. This is BS!!!!

Please make witch win with evils even if she dead cause people are assholes.

Thank you.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Shyyster » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:51 pm

So a witch that dies D2 by lynching or being executed N2 should be given a win after evils manage to win without them? Sounds unfair.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby shapesifter13 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:23 pm

If this happens the witch would likely get sizable nerfs. She has roughly a 50% win rate currently.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Flake » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:54 pm

The most unfair aspect about Witch is having no incentive to not out information they have collected (often helping the Town massively, usually by outing evil players) once dead. While allowing the Witch to win with evils while dead seems like a logical option which remedies many unfair instances (including the main one which I previously stated), it should be noted that many new unfair elements would arise, including all examples similar to what Shyyster gave.

The most simple change to Witch which is objectively effective in decreasing unfair elements involved in my opinion would be to have the Witch's last will not flip upon death. This means that the main form of communication from the now dead Witch and the public has disappeared, and thus the information they have gained cannot be communicated to the public through Last Wills. There is really no loss in making the Witch's last will not flip upon death, since her win chance is not affected by information she is giving out. There are other more situational instances in which the Witch could convey their information to the public when dead, including through an alive Medium, through a dead Medium via seance, or through a resurrected player, though these seem a bit more tricky to fix without detrimental effects in other aspects. The most obvious fix to all three would be to disallow the Witch from speaking in dead chat, which might not be as bad an idea as it sounds given that, by the Witch's win condition, giving information out once dead is futile in affecting their win chances, so they really have no reason to converse with the dead chat unless it were to be affecting the win chances of other players; but a non-factor (dead Witch) having an impact on the game is incredibly stupid. There is an argument to be made that a restriction in a player's speech when dead might seem un-fun, but honestly, this really doesn't matter since the player can just leave and find a new game.

To conclude, implement these two changes to Witch:

1. The Witch's last will does not flip upon death.
2. The Witch cannot speak in the dead chat.
Last edited by Flake on Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Atalanta8 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:06 pm

Flake wrote:The most unfair aspect about Witch is having no incentive to not out information they have collected (often helping the Town massively, usually by outing evil players) once dead. While allowing the Witch to win with evils while dead seems like a logical option which remedies many unfair instances (including the main one which I previously stated), it should be noted that many new unfair elements would arise, including all examples similar to what Shyyster gave.

The most simple change to Witch which is objectively effective in decreasing unfair elements involved in my opinion would be to have the Witch's last will not flip upon death. This means that the main form of communication from the now dead Witch and the public has disappeared, and thus the information they have gained cannot be communicated to the public through Last Wills. There is really no loss in making the Witch's last will not flip upon death, since her win chance is not affected by information she is giving out. There are other more situational instances in which the Witch could convey their information to the public when dead, including through an alive Medium, through a dead Medium via seance, or through a resurrected player, though these seem more tricky to fix without detrimental effects in other aspects.


The game needs a notepad and a will. That would solve the will issue. And I don't see that issue in high ELO. The biggest issue I see is the one I described. People just being dicks cause they can (it won't effect their own win). I see it happen and clearly it happens to me too. It's not an isolated incident.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Atalanta8 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:09 pm

Shyyster wrote:So a witch that dies D2 by lynching or being executed N2 should be given a win after evils manage to win without them? Sounds unfair.


Evils now at a great disadvantage and witch needs to waste 20 mins of her time to not lose -15 elo so yeah why not? What's the big deal? Better give wins to witches who die D2 than have witches that try and cinch the win for evils just to be voted off by said evils just cause it won't effect them and they are assholes.

Wouldn't the positive outweigh the negative?
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Atalanta8 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:12 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:If this happens the witch would likely get sizable nerfs. She has roughly a 50% win rate currently.


I most definitely don't win 50% with witch.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Flake » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:22 pm

Atalanta8 wrote:
Flake wrote:The most unfair aspect about Witch is having no incentive to not out information they have collected (often helping the Town massively, usually by outing evil players) once dead. While allowing the Witch to win with evils while dead seems like a logical option which remedies many unfair instances (including the main one which I previously stated), it should be noted that many new unfair elements would arise, including all examples similar to what Shyyster gave.

The most simple change to Witch which is objectively effective in decreasing unfair elements involved in my opinion would be to have the Witch's last will not flip upon death. This means that the main form of communication from the now dead Witch and the public has disappeared, and thus the information they have gained cannot be communicated to the public through Last Wills. There is really no loss in making the Witch's last will not flip upon death, since her win chance is not affected by information she is giving out. There are other more situational instances in which the Witch could convey their information to the public when dead, including through an alive Medium, through a dead Medium via seance, or through a resurrected player, though these seem more tricky to fix without detrimental effects in other aspects.


The game needs a notepad and a will. That would solve the will issue. And I don't see that issue in high ELO. The biggest issue I see is the one I described. People just being dicks cause they can (it won't effect their own win). I see it happen and clearly it happens to me too. It's not an isolated incident.

It is certainly an issue, but the remedy to it (winning with evils when dead) means replacing the issue with another issue, which arguably outweighs the prior issue in terms of the extent to which the "unfair" elements introduced effect the health of the game.

Also, the problem with Witch which I previously mentioned certainly does occur in high Elo.

Atalanta8 wrote:
Shyyster wrote:So a witch that dies D2 by lynching or being executed N2 should be given a win after evils manage to win without them? Sounds unfair.


Evils now at a great disadvantage and witch needs to waste 20 mins of her time to not lose -15 elo so yeah why not? What's the big deal? Better give wins to witches who die D2 than have witches that try and cinch the win for evils just to be voted off by said evils just cause it won't effect them and they are assholes.

Wouldn't the positive outweigh the negative?

Evils being at a disadvantage is irrelevant; in many instances, the Witch could lose by making a bad play or being found out, in which case her loss would be completely warranted. Other evils having a harder time winning after Witch's death doesn't change that.

Deprivation of a win when it is warranted is not any more unfair than giving a win when it isn't warranted, from a logical standpoint.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Mikemk » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:27 am

Atalanta8 wrote:
shapesifter13 wrote:If this happens the witch would likely get sizable nerfs. She has roughly a 50% win rate currently.


I most definitely don't win 50% with witch.

I win, by my estimation, about 85% of games I play as Witch, definitely the easiest role by a long shot IMO. I'm shocked that the average is only 50%. Guess it depends on the player.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Atalanta8 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:18 pm

Mikemk wrote:
Atalanta8 wrote:
shapesifter13 wrote:If this happens the witch would likely get sizable nerfs. She has roughly a 50% win rate currently.


I most definitely don't win 50% with witch.

I win, by my estimation, about 85% of games I play as Witch, definitely the easiest role by a long shot IMO. I'm shocked that the average is only 50%. Guess it depends on the player.



Maf tends to target me N1 as NE for some reason I die D2 often.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Mikemk » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:22 pm

You might want to change your username, sounds like you have a particularly baity username.

Or perhaps people recognize you as a good player and kill you to make the game easier
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby James2 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:30 am

You being salty about losing is not a valid reason for changing game mechanics.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby James2 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:32 am

Flake wrote:There is really no loss in making the Witch's last will not flip upon death, since her win chance is not affected by information she is giving out.


Removing the witch's will would be a drastic nerf. It's one of the main things deterring the mafia from killing the witch.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Mikemk » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:24 am

James2 wrote:
Flake wrote:There is really no loss in making the Witch's last will not flip upon death, since her win chance is not affected by information she is giving out.


Removing the witch's will would be a drastic nerf. It's one of the main things deterring the mafia from killing the witch.

this, right here.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Flake » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:26 am

Mikemk wrote:
James2 wrote:
Flake wrote:There is really no loss in making the Witch's last will not flip upon death, since her win chance is not affected by information she is giving out.


Removing the witch's will would be a drastic nerf. It's one of the main things deterring the mafia from killing the witch.

this, right here.

I mean, no, I can name 2 far greater deterrents right off the bat

Incentive to not kill Witch because Witch is a plausible teammate to the Mafia
Incentive to not kill Witch because Witch's barrier would make Mafia waste a kill tempo

First thing alone makes Mafia killing Witch over Mafia killing Town stupid in the majority of game states
And then in the minority of game states where killing Witch is better than killing a Town due to the possibility that Witch can team with Mafia, the majority of this minority of game states killing Witch is not going to be as effective as killing a Town because the Witch would have a magical barrier a large amount of the time.

My point was more that the Witch's win chance is not affected directly from the information she gives, as opposed to the Witch's win chance being affected by possibility that she could give out that information whilst alive. It is true that her win chances are (slightly) affected in not having a last will since Mafia/NK may have more incentive to kill her in situational circumstances, but it is also true that Mafia/NK killing Witch in many of these circumstances is fair.

Witch would really not be nerfed "drastically" at all, given she has numerous other (larger) things that would deter Mafia/NK from killing her once she's found out
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby James2 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:40 pm

Flake wrote:it is also true that Mafia/NK killing Witch in many of these circumstances is fair.


No. If the witch has an effective deterrent to being killed then it isn't "fair" that she should die, just so that you can implement a buff to the mafia.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Flake » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:58 pm

James2 wrote:
Flake wrote:it is also true that Mafia/NK killing Witch in many of these circumstances is fair.


No. If the witch has an effective deterrent to being killed then it isn't "fair" that she should die, just so that you can implement a buff to the mafia.

There are numerous examples in which Mafia/NK killing Witch would be deemed "fair"; for example, the Mafia analyses that the Witch is more likely to side NK in a scenario where one of Mafia and NK are likely to win, or if NK analyses that the Witch is more likely to side Mafia in a scenario where one of Mafia and NK are likely to win. There are numerous existent examples, so to argue that no such examples exist is simply untrue.

Also, the incentive of doing this would not be to give Mafia a buff, and you know that. The incentive here is to make Witch more fair.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby James2 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:34 pm

Flake wrote:Also, the incentive of doing this would not be to give Mafia a buff, and you know that.


The only argument you've presented for this idea is that it would buff the mafia (and NK) by preventing the witch from outing them. If the mafia feel the need to kill the witch, they should have to bear the potential consequences of doing so. Increasing mafia win rates is not a valid argument for imposing a disability on the witch.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby BasicFourLife » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:14 am

Shyyster wrote:So a witch that dies D2 by lynching or being executed N2 should be given a win after evils manage to win without them? Sounds unfair.

Mafia can die N1 and still win. Your point?

shapesifter13 wrote:If this happens the witch would likely get sizable nerfs. She has roughly a 50% win rate currently.

You can start by getting rid of her Consig ability, it’s retarded for her to have it in the first place.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby James2 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:38 pm

The mafia is a team. The witch is a solo neutral. There's no valid reason for the witch to win while dead.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Flake » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:52 pm

James2 wrote:
Flake wrote:Also, the incentive of doing this would not be to give Mafia a buff, and you know that.


The only argument you've presented for this idea is that it would buff the mafia (and NK) by preventing the witch from outing them. If the mafia feel the need to kill the witch, they should have to bear the potential consequences of doing so. Increasing mafia win rates is not a valid argument for imposing a disability on the witch.

The argument I've presented is that the unfair elements that can come about by Witch outing Mafia/NK are far more massive than the unfair elements that can come about from Mafia/NK situationally having slightly more incentive to kill the Witch than if she did not have a Last Will. Again, I never once argued that "increasing mafia win rates" is my argument for imposing a very slight nerf on the Witch; making the Witch significantly more fair is my argument for imposing a very slight nerf on the Witch.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Google » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:11 pm

witch winning while dead would without doubt ruin witch and would be way to op, right?
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Flake » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:52 pm

Google wrote:witch winning while dead would without doubt ruin witch and would be way to op, right?

It would increase her win rate by a fairly significant amount, which doesn't in and of itself "ruin" witch, since the role can still be argued to be mechanically sound. The argument of no win with evils after death vs win with evils after death is pretty subjective in all honesty.

BasicFourLife wrote:
Shyyster wrote:So a witch that dies D2 by lynching or being executed N2 should be given a win after evils manage to win without them? Sounds unfair.

Mafia can die N1 and still win. Your point?

I mean, you could argue that this is also an unfair element, but it's unavoidable due to the nature of the faction.
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17D: Mafia Vig - Win (Died N2)
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby James2 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:51 am

Flake wrote:
James2 wrote:
Flake wrote:Also, the incentive of doing this would not be to give Mafia a buff, and you know that.


The only argument you've presented for this idea is that it would buff the mafia (and NK) by preventing the witch from outing them. If the mafia feel the need to kill the witch, they should have to bear the potential consequences of doing so. Increasing mafia win rates is not a valid argument for imposing a disability on the witch.

The argument I've presented is that the unfair elements that can come about by Witch outing Mafia/NK are far more massive than the unfair elements that can come about from Mafia/NK situationally having slightly more incentive to kill the Witch than if she did not have a Last Will. Again, I never once argued that "increasing mafia win rates" is my argument for imposing a very slight nerf on the Witch; making the Witch significantly more fair is my argument for imposing a very slight nerf on the Witch.


The possibility of the mafia or NK being caught and exposed by another faction is not an "unfair element". As I said to the OP, increasing the win rates of one faction is not a valid argument for disabling another.
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Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi

Postby Mikemk » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:48 am

BasicFourLife wrote:You can start by getting rid of her Consig ability, it’s retarded for her to have it in the first place.

Actually, only consig ability would work better than only controlling, since she could find out who she wins with.
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