Buff The Mafia

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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby Flake » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:49 pm

MicrowavedSalad wrote:
Flake wrote:
MicrowavedSalad wrote:I guess that makes sense, but I still feel that it's balanced enough to have a fair game (given that everyone is exerting the same levels of skill and wit) between the fact that townies have trouble confirming each other and mafia is good at fitting in with the townies.

Yikes. Have you played Ranked before?


lol yeah just that (for me) the town ends up going dumb and killing themselves off while the mafia blends in naturally until its 4v4 and town accepts their doom

So, again, assuming Town is stupid, which is a highly inaccurate way to establish the actual utility which both factions have at their disposal.
FM Record: 6 - 2
Spoiler: VFM48: Mafia Goon - Win (Lived, Replaced in N5)
17F: Bodyguard - Win (Lived)
VFM46: Mafia Goon - Win (Lived)
17D: Mafia Vig - Win (Died N2)
SFM47: Parity Cop - Win (Lived)
16E: Veteran - Loss (Endgamed)
VFM37: Citizen - Loss (Lynched D2)
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby Villagerlover » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:23 pm

MicrowavedSalad wrote:
Flake wrote:
MicrowavedSalad wrote:I guess that makes sense, but I still feel that it's balanced enough to have a fair game (given that everyone is exerting the same levels of skill and wit) between the fact that townies have trouble confirming each other and mafia is good at fitting in with the townies.

Yikes. Have you played Ranked before?


lol yeah just that (for me) the town ends up going dumb and killing themselves off while the mafia blends in naturally until its 4v4 and town accepts their doom



Are you sure playing Ranked, and not Ranked Practice?
Because Ranked townies are really smart, and know how to do ultimate meta all the time. The mafia have trouble blending in day 1 because the town finds ways to single out the random town slots for that particular game...
Wanna say somethin'? >B3
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby BasicFourLife » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:04 am

MicrowavedSalad wrote:
Flake wrote:
MicrowavedSalad wrote:I guess that makes sense, but I still feel that it's balanced enough to have a fair game (given that everyone is exerting the same levels of skill and wit) between the fact that townies have trouble confirming each other and mafia is good at fitting in with the townies.

Yikes. Have you played Ranked before?


lol yeah just that (for me) the town ends up going dumb and killing themselves off while the mafia blends in naturally until its 4v4 and town accepts their doom

then ur tarded
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby Helicooler » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:23 am

What gamemode are you playing lmao
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Re: Buff The Mafia (change to role list)

Postby Zyprexa2024 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:31 pm

For the buff for mafia, I would say replace one RM with a Mafia Support (consig, consort, bmer) as Mafia Support has the 3 by far best mafia role, would make people less likely to leave because of a double disg/framer/forger game. I believe this could actually work because we all know how it feels for you to be in a mafia with two framers where everyone but you leaves. I also would say that there should be two NE instead of a NK, becasue only SK can really win and SK still has so many things that should be buffed with it. Also, jester can be a really fun role if you play it right, same with exe. I believe that the invest result for witch means instant death for them, make witch in the invest results along with invest and consig (witch/investigator/consigliere) because of witch's ability to determine roles. this may also need to come with a buff too spy, making spy be able to see who witch visits. But really just maybe. These are all just ideas! But I know that we have all experienced evils leaving, or leaving our selves because we know that in ranked mafia has a 30% ish percent chance of winning and NK has 2%.
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby Zyprexa2024 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:35 pm

I have another idea that could go with replacing an RM with MS (mafia support), which is bmer, consort, or consig, give mafia, something like Coven's Necronomicon. Could be an easy buff :D
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby Zyprexa2024 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:04 pm

Knuffeldraak wrote:Tbh, this is more something that has to do with the meta rather than how roles originally work. It is very hard to work around the tp/lo jailor meta.

I think the problem lies at that there is always a guaranteed jailor. Imo, it should be 2 town killing rather than a guaranteed jailor.


I also think that there shouldn't always be a jailor, 2 tks would be nice instead.
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby k70freeman » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:31 pm

There should be a role where you can stage deaths. They can make it look like someone else killed the victim. The janitor should be able to alter their victims role not just erase them.
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby Algus » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:22 pm

Any can never happen.

#1, Vampires (fuck the absolute shit out of vampires) For a lot of reasons. /canmakeTKaVHwhichfavorsMaf/punishestownfordyingearlyevenwithgoodplay/listneverreallyends/
#2, Mafia getting 5 members. This approaches vote majority day 2 territory. This shouldnt even exist, it shouldve been capped at 4.

if you want to however, remove Vampire and All mafia roles from the 'Any' slot be my guest. 2nd NK second NE, more bitching by corgi about kingmaker NBs go for it I don't actually care.
What you can't do is add any and leave any of those roles in.

You complain about RT but RT is the only reason mafia has viable claimspace. (Ignoring my next point..)
Making Janitors a static ranked role but reducing their cleans to 2 seems kind of fine, but even if you could have your guaranteed Janitor you would also be hindering yourself; any medium invest turnout is autolynched if it's a known.

Buffing useless (debatably useless) RMs

I do not believe mafia needs a buff no. If I were going to buff mafia though this is where I would begin and end.
Mafioso is it's own reward in not autolosing when GF/Mafio one or the other gets rbed or jailed.

Framer is so dependant on luck and almost exclusively a liability to mafia, i'd outright delete it. This alone makes mafia infinitely more reliable. Wow.
Forger takes such an enormous amount of skill to do well, and absolutely none of that skill carries into high elo so don't bother. Delete this so the odds of Jan go up yet again. Amazing.
Blackmailer. Make. This. Visit. Invisible. To. Spy.
I'm (VEHEMNTLY) of the opinion spy is extremely hot trash. In fact it is absolutely trash in it's current state. but yknow why it's still remotely useful? because rms with useless abilities exist and tell him who isn't mafia. I'm willing to overlook this fact in favor of making blackmailer visits invisible to spy, but only if spy gets something back in return.

That's how you buff the mafia
Ambusher in classic? I do not trust giving mafia 2 potential kills in 1 night not to break ranked. The ambusher will /likely/ die following, yes, but likely isn't good enough.
It sounds too dangerous for my tastes.

disguiser is fine as is. it has the most subtle impact when played well but it makes a wave in that scenario.
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby Flake » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:46 pm

Algus wrote:Any can never happen.

#1, Vampires (fuck the absolute shit out of vampires) For a lot of reasons. /canmakeTKaVHwhichfavorsMaf/punishestownfordyingearlyevenwithgoodplay/listneverreallyends/
#2, Mafia getting 5 members. This approaches vote majority day 2 territory. This shouldnt even exist, it shouldve been capped at 4.

if you want to however, remove Vampire and All mafia roles from the 'Any' slot be my guest. 2nd NK second NE, more bitching by corgi about kingmaker NBs go for it I don't actually care.
What you can't do is add any and leave any of those roles in.

So you're saying a 2nd NK rolling in an Any slot or am I reading this wrong

If so, yikes

Literally the only argument one needs to completely destroy the misconception that an Any slot could ever be balanced is the huge negative impacts on gameplay as a result of game's outcome being more heavily influenced by luck and less influenced by skill as a result

Remove however many of the roles that would be terrible rolling in an Any slot as you'd like, but it literally doesn't matter because the prior argument always holds, so long as roles from completely different super alignments can roll in the same slot then it just isn't a good idea
FM Record: 6 - 2
Spoiler: VFM48: Mafia Goon - Win (Lived, Replaced in N5)
17F: Bodyguard - Win (Lived)
VFM46: Mafia Goon - Win (Lived)
17D: Mafia Vig - Win (Died N2)
SFM47: Parity Cop - Win (Lived)
16E: Veteran - Loss (Endgamed)
VFM37: Citizen - Loss (Lynched D2)
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby Algus » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:58 pm

Flake wrote:
Algus wrote:Any can never happen.

#1, Vampires (fuck the absolute shit out of vampires) For a lot of reasons. /canmakeTKaVHwhichfavorsMaf/punishestownfordyingearlyevenwithgoodplay/listneverreallyends/
#2, Mafia getting 5 members. This approaches vote majority day 2 territory. This shouldnt even exist, it shouldve been capped at 4.

if you want to however, remove Vampire and All mafia roles from the 'Any' slot be my guest. 2nd NK second NE, more bitching by corgi about kingmaker NBs go for it I don't actually care.
What you can't do is add any and leave any of those roles in.

So you're saying a 2nd NK rolling in an Any slot or am I reading this wrong

If so, yikes

Literally the only argument one needs to completely destroy the misconception that an Any slot could ever be balanced is the huge negative impacts on gameplay as a result of game's outcome being more heavily influenced by luck and less influenced by skill as a result

Remove however many of the roles that would be terrible rolling in an Any slot as you'd like, but it literally doesn't matter because the prior argument always holds, so long as roles from completely different super alignments can roll in the same slot then it just isn't a good idea



we don't disagree

i just care less
If it did get added back however, those 2 arguments must be considered. No vamps, no 5th mafia. in which case, why would you want it back in the context of helping mafia.
That's basically my point
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby MoreSatan » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:49 am

Mafia is so weak seriously I hate being maf. They should bring back the neutral role amne is ok survivor is bad they should create something else.
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby heiisbeiis2 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:59 pm

robertlinke wrote:mafia has no chance of winning unless town gets abolutely stupid.
it needs a buff, or town needs to be nerfed, it's no fun like this anymore.
mafia is getting desperate so they will just do shit at random, to see if they can find retri or jailor early, which almost never works.

a good change would be to have neutral chaos instead of neutral evil in ranked/ranked practice. this way there is more killing potential, or a the chance for a GA or something.
another good change would be to bring ambusher into classic.

or drop the chance for retri and transporter a bit.
or give mafia a new role, a failed doctor who now works for organised crime, who can heal someone by getting the correct thing at a mini game, like pirate has.

but whatever you do, maf needs to be buffed


Mafia does have a chance at winning, you just need to learn how to lie. If you just sit there the whole game and don't even attempt to lie or claim a role, you are doing something wrong. You can't just expect to win without trying. If you think mafia is that difficult to win as, you either suck at lying or you aren't actually trying. It isn't that difficult to figure out people's roles if you actually pay attention to chat. It's just process of elimination. If you have brain cells, you can win as mafia. Specifically in ranked practice, you have 4 mafia. It should be the easiest win of your life. If you can't win with 4 mafia, you are just bad. It doesn't need a buff just because you are unable to lie.

Neutral Chaos would be a nightmare in ranked/ranked practice. No one wants to deal with vampires. That's why people play that game mode. Maybe a Neutral Benign would work, but not a Neutral Chaos.

Bringing ambusher into classic would probably be a nightmare as well. Everyone in that game mode is already brain dead and can barely handle 3 maf, an sk, and 2 neutrals (which should be an ez win if you are evil and keep the 2 neutrals alive to stall votes). Giving the mafia another member to kill would not be good in classic.

Mafia does not need a buff. Your brain needs a buff. Get better at lying.
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby Dongiorgione » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:26 pm

Or maybe nerf the jailor.
- Once the jailor executes a town member, the jailor can't jail anyone anymore instead of execute.
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby heiisbeiis2 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:52 pm

Dongiorgione wrote:Or maybe nerf the jailor.
- Once the jailor executes a town member, the jailor can't jail anyone anymore instead of execute.

The jailor is fine how he is. So is mafia. It isn't like you can't lie to the jailor. Maybe it's harder to lie to someone who is better at the game, but once you figure out how to be a good liar, it isn't that difficult to trick even a decent player.
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby BasicFourLife » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:51 am

heiisbeiis2 wrote:
robertlinke wrote:mafia has no chance of winning unless town gets abolutely stupid.
it needs a buff, or town needs to be nerfed, it's no fun like this anymore.
mafia is getting desperate so they will just do shit at random, to see if they can find retri or jailor early, which almost never works.

a good change would be to have neutral chaos instead of neutral evil in ranked/ranked practice. this way there is more killing potential, or a the chance for a GA or something.
another good change would be to bring ambusher into classic.

or drop the chance for retri and transporter a bit.
or give mafia a new role, a failed doctor who now works for organised crime, who can heal someone by getting the correct thing at a mini game, like pirate has.

but whatever you do, maf needs to be buffed


Mafia does have a chance at winning, you just need to learn how to lie. If you just sit there the whole game and don't even attempt to lie or claim a role, you are doing something wrong. You can't just expect to win without trying. If you think mafia is that difficult to win as, you either suck at lying or you aren't actually trying. It isn't that difficult to figure out people's roles if you actually pay attention to chat. It's just process of elimination. If you have brain cells, you can win as mafia. Specifically in ranked practice, you have 4 mafia. It should be the easiest win of your life. If you can't win with 4 mafia, you are just bad. It doesn't need a buff just because you are unable to lie.

Neutral Chaos would be a nightmare in ranked/ranked practice. No one wants to deal with vampires. That's why people play that game mode. Maybe a Neutral Benign would work, but not a Neutral Chaos.

Bringing ambusher into classic would probably be a nightmare as well. Everyone in that game mode is already brain dead and can barely handle 3 maf, an sk, and 2 neutrals (which should be an ez win if you are evil and keep the 2 neutrals alive to stall votes). Giving the mafia another member to kill would not be good in classic.

Mafia does not need a buff. Your brain needs a buff. Get better at lying.

You are what we call a *beep*. It doesn't matter how good you are at lying. It doesn't matter if you know everyone's roles very early on. You are still never going to have more than a 33% winrate as Mafia. The current WR for Mafia is actually 10-20%. And Town has a 70% winrate and the best part is the majority of the Town players don't even try. How high of a WR would you think Townies had if they all mass claimed Day 1 and kept track of everyone's roles? It would be higher than 90%.
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Re: Buff The Mafia

Postby Flake » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:54 am

heiisbeiis2 wrote:
Dongiorgione wrote:Or maybe nerf the jailor.
- Once the jailor executes a town member, the jailor can't jail anyone anymore instead of execute.

The jailor is fine how he is. So is mafia. It isn't like you can't lie to the jailor. Maybe it's harder to lie to someone who is better at the game, but once you figure out how to be a good liar, it isn't that difficult to trick even a decent player.

Your logic of "if ur losing as scum ur bad at being scum" relies on the assumption that town doesn't have tools at their disposal to very frequently mechanically confirm or at least make it very likely that someone is scum despite how well said scum is playing

Which town very obviously does

Town has far more leeway in terms of potential to affect the game's outcome by using skill than Mafia, evidenced by the significant increase in town win rate in higher elo games as compared to lower elo games
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Spoiler: VFM48: Mafia Goon - Win (Lived, Replaced in N5)
17F: Bodyguard - Win (Lived)
VFM46: Mafia Goon - Win (Lived)
17D: Mafia Vig - Win (Died N2)
SFM47: Parity Cop - Win (Lived)
16E: Veteran - Loss (Endgamed)
VFM37: Citizen - Loss (Lynched D2)
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