Ban Retributionist from Ranked

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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby Flake » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:30 pm

AnchorSaviour wrote:Offering my raw opinion here when I say this but I have no problem WHATSOEVER with the retributionist being available in ranked. I mean, it's just a role with a very niche talent. What's the difference if it "confirms two townies instantly"? A mayor does half of that in a single instance and so does a Jailor, a sheriff will become confirmed if he finds a mafia member and lynches it. I mean, it just sounds so sad that this is the most common excuse for nerfing the retributionist. It's completely and utterly useless dead, near worthless after the ability is used and is a VERY and I mean VERY easy target when revealed. Just reiterating, I have no problem with the retributionist and furthermore, I see no issue with it being available in ranked either.

Except no one is saying that Jailor is a fine role from a balance standpoint. Far from it. Just because some other roles also have a bad design in a balanced environment doesn't mean we should be fine with others. I would imagine that the Retributionist is the most commonly complained about because it has two glaringly obvious design issues, both of which are extremely problematic especially when they exist in tandem; the role taking almost no skill to play efficiently, and the role being overpowered. No other role in Ranked really comes close to being as bad as Retributionist in both regards simultaneously; even though roles like Mayor, Jailor and Spy have horrendous design issues, they still at least require a decent amount of skill to play efficiently. Also, there's a difference between being given confirmability for virtually free, and having to actually work for confirmability. You said it yourself, "a sheriff will become confirmed if he finds a mafia member and lynches it" - a decent amount of work is required before the Sheriff can become confirmed, and the more skilled the Sheriff is, the more likely they are to become confirmed earlier.

If you think a Retributionist that has revived is "utterly useless", you don't know the benefits of confirmability well enough. It's incredibly easy to, at the very least, significantly improve the Town's state by forcing claims and using process of elimination. A Retributionist that has revived has huge day prevalence.

Your two reasons for writing off the issues with Retributionist are that "Retributionist is useless after they've revived", which is entirely false and doesn't justify the Retributionist's utility when they are reviving, and that other roles also have similar issues, which is a horrendous justification for ignoring the issues with Retributionist.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby asdf8765 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:06 pm

/support

Having a retri in a game confirms at least 2 people, confirms a TS role, and confirms all mediums / invalidates fake medium claims.

I just had a game, where SK miraculously killed jailor n1 (I'm serious. Jailor didn't jail anyone n1, it was in his will). and we thought, oh nice, evils are winning this one. But the next day jailor comes back, confirms 2 mediums (and the ret), and there was a trans. TP and TK died n2, and 1 spy died n1. So guess what, the only possible claim for evils was TI. And nobody trusts late TI claims. All this put together meant there were 5 unconfirmed roles, out of them 4 were evil. Town won the game d3 without doing anything.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby ThePublicDomain » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:35 pm

After reading countless discussion on this topic, I think this is a fine, if not should happen, solution.

Either this or alter it just for Ranked.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby JorgitoEstrella » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:27 pm

Plase Ban Ranked from the game, it's so obnoxious how even when mafia tries his best they even ended up losing due to Retributionist.

I'm not saying "remove REt from the game", just from Ranked.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:12 pm

We can't have different game balance standards, that's not okay. The rules for ranked should be the rules set for ALL modes - we cannot have arsonist silent douses just in ranked, vigilante with jailor's guilt just in ranked, etc. This needs to be an all or nothing approach, otherwise it will just be confusing. And let's be real, anything that can't work in a Ranked environment has no place in ToS.

Additionally, having a slot for Town Support but without retributionist is no bueno - I would support something like this in classic because players need to learn roles without confusing roles such as transporter, but not ranked. This is okay for things like Vampire and NB where we can just remove the NB and Any slots and make the roles impossible to roll. However, if we had an Any with no possibility for Vampire or NB (Any in ranked is a terrible idea, but speaking hypothetically) that is bad. This, however, is better than altering a role just for Ranked.

What we need, is an approach that would modify retributionist (since no role can be removed) so that it would work in every mode. The Ranked players would rejoice and the All Any players would not complain. There needs to be consistency. That is the most important thing.
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Back and Forth

Postby Villagerlover » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:06 am

I truly believe the Retributionist should have a rework from the ground up as Kirizie said.

I have seen so many threads and solutions like this, and I've even proposed my own before. But it just seems no matter what kind of "trade off" or "punishment" can be implemented on the revival ability itself, it's still none the less, a revival ability to only help the meta for town which is absolutely overpowered. Confirming 2 town roles and setting back all evil roles by 1 day is completely unfair for mafia, neutral killers, and the Witch.

Limiting the abilities of the revived person has been proposed, and my problem with that nowadays is that it really doesn't help the meta. A town role that is confirmed and will never be voted by other town members doesn't need an ability other than talking and voting. So reviving a nerfed jailor or mayor isn't going to solve the problem since the town still retains a voting power.
The retributionist sacrificing themselves to revive another town member has been heavily suggested, and heavily denied for good reason. That reason being that the retributionist's main ability would be boring because it literally requires you to kill yourself to help the town. And as far as I'm aware, it's not ever fun to be dead...with an ability like that, be prepared to see a lot more people leaving when they roll retributionist on the role wheel. I don't think a "trade off" is going to be worth it. I believe the retributinoist should have something that it can contribute to the town without any sort of requirement of killing itself.


The retributinisst has been the target of many unhappy balancers, and yet there still doesn't seem to be a way to work with a "revival" ability. So naturally it seems the only good solution for balance is to rework the role entirely.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby itaicool » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:01 pm

Mabye change it so the retri revive a player and then the play lives for 2 days and dies again? (The retri can only keep his soul alive for short duration)
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby MoustachioMario » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:45 am

I think we should remove Ret in general until we can find a suitable fix for it.

I mean, dead people are not supposed to come back to life ;)
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:25 pm

MoustachioMario wrote:I think we should remove Ret in general until we can find a suitable fix for it.

I mean, dead people are not supposed to come back to life ;)
People are also not supposed to be able to turn each other into vampires, or use voodoo magic to control the actions of others, or speak to the souls of the dead, but it still happens in this game.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby Flake » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:58 pm

Kirize12 wrote:We can't have different game balance standards, that's not okay. The rules for ranked should be the rules set for ALL modes - we cannot have arsonist silent douses just in ranked, vigilante with jailor's guilt just in ranked, etc. This needs to be an all or nothing approach, otherwise it will just be confusing. And let's be real, anything that can't work in a Ranked environment has no place in ToS.

Additionally, having a slot for Town Support but without retributionist is no bueno - I would support something like this in classic because players need to learn roles without confusing roles such as transporter, but not ranked. This is okay for things like Vampire and NB where we can just remove the NB and Any slots and make the roles impossible to roll. However, if we had an Any with no possibility for Vampire or NB (Any in ranked is a terrible idea, but speaking hypothetically) that is bad. This, however, is better than altering a role just for Ranked.

What we need, is an approach that would modify retributionist (since no role can be removed) so that it would work in every mode. The Ranked players would rejoice and the All Any players would not complain. There needs to be consistency. That is the most important thing.

Removing an entire role from Ranked is vastly different to what you're comparing it to. There would be no confusion over Retributionist being removed from Ranked in the long run, because it's such a huge thing that it would be impossible to miss after playing a few games (if they somehow didn't hear about the Retributionist's removal prior to these games), similarly to how there there was no confusion over Survivor or Amnesiac being removed from Ranked in the long run. Having small differences in game mechanics would, on the other hand, confuse players even in the long run, because small differences in game mechanics (like having a vigilante with Jailor guilt in Ranked but not in other modes) are going to be talked about rarely at best. Having multiple inconsistencies in game mechanics across different modes would be problematic for this reason; very few people would be able to keep track of multiple minor mechanical differences between modes.

Even if there would be an inconsistency in the contents of the Town Support alignment in Ranked compared to other modes, it doesn't matter, because it's one huge change, so there is little room for confusion in the long run. The overwhelming majority of people who play Ranked are going to know about it either before playing, or during play where it is talked about and has no effect on the game's outcome.

I can sort of understand where you're coming from with this argument, unlike the other arguments I've seen against removing Retributionist from Ranked, but realistically the impact of this "weakness" which comes about from removing Retributionist from Ranked is going to be close to negligible, especially in the long run. Not to mention, this weakness definitely doesn't even come close to outweighing the merits gained by removing Retributionist from Ranked.
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