Ban Retributionist from Ranked

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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby Flake » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:30 pm

AnchorSaviour wrote:Offering my raw opinion here when I say this but I have no problem WHATSOEVER with the retributionist being available in ranked. I mean, it's just a role with a very niche talent. What's the difference if it "confirms two townies instantly"? A mayor does half of that in a single instance and so does a Jailor, a sheriff will become confirmed if he finds a mafia member and lynches it. I mean, it just sounds so sad that this is the most common excuse for nerfing the retributionist. It's completely and utterly useless dead, near worthless after the ability is used and is a VERY and I mean VERY easy target when revealed. Just reiterating, I have no problem with the retributionist and furthermore, I see no issue with it being available in ranked either.

Except no one is saying that Jailor is a fine role from a balance standpoint. Far from it. Just because some other roles also have a bad design in a balanced environment doesn't mean we should be fine with others. I would imagine that the Retributionist is the most commonly complained about because it has two glaringly obvious design issues, both of which are extremely problematic especially when they exist in tandem; the role taking almost no skill to play efficiently, and the role being overpowered. No other role in Ranked really comes close to being as bad as Retributionist in both regards simultaneously; even though roles like Mayor, Jailor and Spy have horrendous design issues, they still at least require a decent amount of skill to play efficiently. Also, there's a difference between being given confirmability for virtually free, and having to actually work for confirmability. You said it yourself, "a sheriff will become confirmed if he finds a mafia member and lynches it" - a decent amount of work is required before the Sheriff can become confirmed, and the more skilled the Sheriff is, the more likely they are to become confirmed earlier.

If you think a Retributionist that has revived is "utterly useless", you don't know the benefits of confirmability well enough. It's incredibly easy to, at the very least, significantly improve the Town's state by forcing claims and using process of elimination. A Retributionist that has revived has huge day prevalence.

Your two reasons for writing off the issues with Retributionist are that "Retributionist is useless after they've revived", which is entirely false and doesn't justify the Retributionist's utility when they are reviving, and that other roles also have similar issues, which is a horrendous justification for ignoring the issues with Retributionist.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby asdf8765 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:06 pm

/support

Having a retri in a game confirms at least 2 people, confirms a TS role, and confirms all mediums / invalidates fake medium claims.

I just had a game, where SK miraculously killed jailor n1 (I'm serious. Jailor didn't jail anyone n1, it was in his will). and we thought, oh nice, evils are winning this one. But the next day jailor comes back, confirms 2 mediums (and the ret), and there was a trans. TP and TK died n2, and 1 spy died n1. So guess what, the only possible claim for evils was TI. And nobody trusts late TI claims. All this put together meant there were 5 unconfirmed roles, out of them 4 were evil. Town won the game d3 without doing anything.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby ThePublicDomain » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:35 pm

After reading countless discussions on this topic, I think this is a fine, if not should happen, solution.

Either this or alter it just for Ranked.
Last edited by ThePublicDomain on Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby JorgitoEstrella » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:27 pm

Plase Ban Ranked from the game, it's so obnoxious how even when mafia tries his best they even ended up losing due to Retributionist.

I'm not saying "remove REt from the game", just from Ranked.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:12 pm

We can't have different game balance standards, that's not okay. The rules for ranked should be the rules set for ALL modes - we cannot have arsonist silent douses just in ranked, vigilante with jailor's guilt just in ranked, etc. This needs to be an all or nothing approach, otherwise it will just be confusing. And let's be real, anything that can't work in a Ranked environment has no place in ToS.

Additionally, having a slot for Town Support but without retributionist is no bueno - I would support something like this in classic because players need to learn roles without confusing roles such as transporter, but not ranked. This is okay for things like Vampire and NB where we can just remove the NB and Any slots and make the roles impossible to roll. However, if we had an Any with no possibility for Vampire or NB (Any in ranked is a terrible idea, but speaking hypothetically) that is bad. This, however, is better than altering a role just for Ranked.

What we need, is an approach that would modify retributionist (since no role can be removed) so that it would work in every mode. The Ranked players would rejoice and the All Any players would not complain. There needs to be consistency. That is the most important thing.
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Back and Forth

Postby Villagerlover » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:06 am

I truly believe the Retributionist should have a rework from the ground up as Kirizie said.

I have seen so many threads and solutions like this, and I've even proposed my own before. But it just seems no matter what kind of "trade off" or "punishment" can be implemented on the revival ability itself, it's still none the less, a revival ability to only help the meta for town which is absolutely overpowered. Confirming 2 town roles and setting back all evil roles by 1 day is completely unfair for mafia, neutral killers, and the Witch.

Limiting the abilities of the revived person has been proposed, and my problem with that nowadays is that it really doesn't help the meta. A town role that is confirmed and will never be voted by other town members doesn't need an ability other than talking and voting. So reviving a nerfed jailor or mayor isn't going to solve the problem since the town still retains a voting power.
The retributionist sacrificing themselves to revive another town member has been heavily suggested, and heavily denied for good reason. That reason being that the retributionist's main ability would be boring because it literally requires you to kill yourself to help the town. And as far as I'm aware, it's not ever fun to be dead...with an ability like that, be prepared to see a lot more people leaving when they roll retributionist on the role wheel. I don't think a "trade off" is going to be worth it. I believe the retributinoist should have something that it can contribute to the town without any sort of requirement of killing itself.


The retributinisst has been the target of many unhappy balancers, and yet there still doesn't seem to be a way to work with a "revival" ability. So naturally it seems the only good solution for balance is to rework the role entirely.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby itaicool » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:01 pm

Mabye change it so the retri revive a player and then the play lives for 2 days and dies again? (The retri can only keep his soul alive for short duration)
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby MoustachioMario » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:45 am

I think we should remove Ret in general until we can find a suitable fix for it.

I mean, dead people are not supposed to come back to life ;)
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:25 pm

MoustachioMario wrote:I think we should remove Ret in general until we can find a suitable fix for it.

I mean, dead people are not supposed to come back to life ;)
People are also not supposed to be able to turn each other into vampires, or use voodoo magic to control the actions of others, or speak to the souls of the dead, but it still happens in this game.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby Flake » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:58 pm

Kirize12 wrote:We can't have different game balance standards, that's not okay. The rules for ranked should be the rules set for ALL modes - we cannot have arsonist silent douses just in ranked, vigilante with jailor's guilt just in ranked, etc. This needs to be an all or nothing approach, otherwise it will just be confusing. And let's be real, anything that can't work in a Ranked environment has no place in ToS.

Additionally, having a slot for Town Support but without retributionist is no bueno - I would support something like this in classic because players need to learn roles without confusing roles such as transporter, but not ranked. This is okay for things like Vampire and NB where we can just remove the NB and Any slots and make the roles impossible to roll. However, if we had an Any with no possibility for Vampire or NB (Any in ranked is a terrible idea, but speaking hypothetically) that is bad. This, however, is better than altering a role just for Ranked.

What we need, is an approach that would modify retributionist (since no role can be removed) so that it would work in every mode. The Ranked players would rejoice and the All Any players would not complain. There needs to be consistency. That is the most important thing.

Removing an entire role from Ranked is vastly different to what you're comparing it to. There would be no confusion over Retributionist being removed from Ranked in the long run, because it's such a huge thing that it would be impossible to miss after playing a few games (if they somehow didn't hear about the Retributionist's removal prior to these games), similarly to how there there was no confusion over Survivor or Amnesiac being removed from Ranked in the long run. Having small differences in game mechanics would, on the other hand, confuse players even in the long run, because small differences in game mechanics (like having a vigilante with Jailor guilt in Ranked but not in other modes) are going to be talked about rarely at best. Having multiple inconsistencies in game mechanics across different modes would be problematic for this reason; very few people would be able to keep track of multiple minor mechanical differences between modes.

Even if there would be an inconsistency in the contents of the Town Support alignment in Ranked compared to other modes, it doesn't matter, because it's one huge change, so there is little room for confusion in the long run. The overwhelming majority of people who play Ranked are going to know about it either before playing, or during play where it is talked about and has no effect on the game's outcome.

I can sort of understand where you're coming from with this argument, unlike the other arguments I've seen against removing Retributionist from Ranked, but realistically the impact of this "weakness" which comes about from removing Retributionist from Ranked is going to be close to negligible, especially in the long run. Not to mention, this weakness definitely doesn't even come close to outweighing the merits gained by removing Retributionist from Ranked.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby ThePublicDomain » Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:44 pm

DragonClaw66 wrote:I'm fine with this change but I don't want it to be permanent; as soon as it receives a rework that balances it, it should be moved back to ranked.


There really is not much to rework. It brings someone back from the dead, that is all it needs to do.
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Re: Ban Retributionist from Ranked

Postby Flake » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:30 am

Somehow didn't reply to this.

panapparos wrote:There are other roles which are even easier to confirm. Jailor (unless maybe he gets cleaned n1, janitor screws up retri as well), Mayor, Transporter. And let's not even mention 2 mediums, LO and TPs, escorts with spies etc. I agree that there is a bit too much of that in the game but that is not something related to Retri specifically. A town with TSes as RTs will have enormous PoE power even without Retri. This is also something to consider, if you remove Retri then as TS you will most likely get an easily confirmable town role anyway.

Ignoring an individually existent issue with a role "because other roles have it" is not a valid argument, because you need to look at ALL of the issues of Retributionist collectively. The roles you mentioned which are also problematic for the same reason, which doesn't include Escorts, TPs and Mediums (all of which are situationally confirmable and/or confirmable dependent on the existence of other roles, so not anywhere near as easy to confirm as Ret on the whole), require at least a decent amount of skill to use effectively directly via their abilities/attributes. Retributionist is the only role in the game which suffers from both issues simultaneously and to a large extent. Also, even if Jailor, Mayor and Transporter have slightly easier self-confirmability, none of them force a game state where 2 Town roles are confirmed consistently via direct use of their ability.

panapparos wrote:Of course Retri confirms 2 roles at once instead of 1 (not to mention 3 if there is a med as well). Consider, however, how the Retri is affected with the changes I proposed:
- First of all, and that's best case scenario, Retri revives on night 3 (day 4). On day 2 Retri will probably have to claim (vfr) or cc a TS claim, giving evils a much better chance to stop him. If town decides to protect retri until it revives, it leaves other important roles like Jailor unguarded.
- The fact that Retri takes up to night 3 (day 4) to revive means evils can now claim Retri with much better success. As it is now any Retri claim is asked to revive immediately and gets hanged if he doesn't. Now an evil role gets more time which hurts the town's PoE power. Furthermore, the fact that Retri can be interrupted more easily (since evils have 2 nights at their disposal) can cast doubts on whether a Retri failing to ress is in fact evil
* this can be augmented by making any mafia (or maybe only certain underpowered Rms like forger, disguiser or framer) visiting the Retri to be able to interrupt the resurrection process. This would also punish towns who vfr, which is imo a good thing.

By day 4 there are already several confirmed townies in various ways. Retri's power with the suggested nerfs is not unprecedented. Someone could claim that the game is too reliant on PoE but that is a problem with the combination of different roles and Retri would be in line in terms of PoE power with other roles.

Of course the above is taking best case scenario. When combining the 2-days-to-ress nerf with the nerf of only being able to ress certain weaker roles, then it is just as likely that the Retri won't be able to ress until night 4 (day 5) if the townie who died on n1 is Jailor, Mayor, Transporter, BG, Doc (and more roles can be added to make this scenario even more plausible. You could even make retri only being able to ress TIs or TKs if necessary). If evils can't get to him by this point, they deserve to have 2+ townies confirmed. Remember that any town who is taking the risk of protecting a Retri claim is leaving everyone else unguarded which is a huge risk considering that the retri claim may be evil.

Retri taking two days to ress also means he will be much more scared of Arso which will reduce meta. If retri asks TP LO and there is Arso, he will most likely get lit up before he can ress.

Your first two nerfs (arguably) make the horrendous fundamental issues of Retributionist slightly better, but the role would still be fundamentally horrendous nonetheless, not to mention that both nerfs come with issues; for example, with the first, reviving the first dead Town would now virtually always be used as the optimum strategy, furthering the weakness of the role requiring little skill even more. With the second, swing is introduced via introducing cases where "if the next dying role can be ressurrected, my utility will be higher, but if the next dying role cannot be resurrected, my utility will be lower". The former part of your third suggestion is essentially Town Power, which has been suggested multiple times and doesn't change the fundamental issues of Retributionist as a role; the latter part of your third suggestion is a horrendous idea for obvious reasons.

panapparos wrote:I can't think of any ways to make Retri skill-dependent without changing the role to something completely different. Medium doesn't require any skills either so it's not the only role with that attribute.

Exactly. If it is realistically implausible to make Retributionist somewhat skill-dependent without changing the role entirely, then that only furthers my argument. Also again, using "X role is also bad because of this issue" is not valid when assessing whether or not Retributionist should be removed, since you are not looking at all of the issues; you are only looking at each individual issue case by case, when you should be looking at the issues collectively. Again, Retributionist is the only role in the game which suffers from both issues of very low skill requirement and very high confirmability power; Medium does not suffer from having extremely high confirmability like Retributionist, so it's negative impact on the game is still much less overall.

panapparos wrote:Balanced games are extremely important to my enjoyment of the game which is why I play almost exclusively ranked even though it means I don't get to enjoy other cool roles, fun game modes or Coven content (i know it has ranked but players play very differently than in the original game's Ranked, at least the games I have played). That being said, I 'm not in favour of sacrificing role diversity from Ranked mode unless it is absolutely necessary. Since I disagree that Retri is inherently broken and believe that it can be brought to a normal level, I am against removing it from Ranked. With the proper nerfs, Retri can be viable and fair in Ranked.

If you disagree with the idea that Retributionist is inherently broken and can be brought to a normal level, then come up with an idea which removes or at least significantly reduces it's glaring fundamental flaws without largely changing the role's fundamental mechanics (if you are going to largely change fundamental mechanics, you might as well add a new role for all game modes with these mechanics and remove Retri from Ranked); you most definitely haven't as of yet, nor has anyone else ever.

panapparos wrote:There would still be the problem of easily confirmable TSes but that's an issue with RTs ending up being TSes rather than Retri and the Retri role can't be individually blamed on that front any more than Mayor or Transporter can. Other than that the only issue I have with Ranked are the underpowered RMs who could use a buff.

Actually, Retributionist induces more confirmability than both Mayor and Transporter from their direct abilities, so it can be blamed more on that front. Even if we assume it can't be blamed any more than Mayor or Transporter on that front, it can still be blamed more on the front of requiring virtually no skill to play outside of discussion. Again, no other role in the game suffers the issue of both a huge lack of requirement of skill and a huge amount of confirmability power simultaneously.
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