Dev Update 11/20/2018

Announcements made here about the game and the company.

Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby PyromonkeyGG » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:56 pm

To make sure that everyone is up to date on the conversation, the permanent frames are likely not the thing we are leaning towards. Make sure to read through the thread if you can before posting your opinion as our strategy for this buff is evolving with the conversation.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:20 pm

PyromonkeyGG wrote:To make sure that everyone is up to date on the conversation, the permanent frames are likely not the thing we are leaning towards. Make sure to read through the thread if you can before posting your opinion as our strategy for this buff is evolving with the conversation.


Recommendation:

Put something stating that in the topic post.
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Re: Testing Grounds Official Response

Postby Achilles » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:43 pm

Parallax7 wrote:
Overhaul/Role by Dragonclaw66!

Thank you for reading, looking forward to the next developer update. ~TG



If you want Framer to have a two selection night menu then this buff is going to be postponed until the Unity port is done which will likely be somewhere around February. Your buff also wants to get rid of Disguiser and combine them into one role. It's just too much right now and I really don't know how I feel about removing a role.
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Re: Testing Grounds Official Response

Postby DragonClaw66 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:00 pm

Achilles wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:
Overhaul/Role by Dragonclaw66!

Thank you for reading, looking forward to the next developer update. ~TG



If you want Framer to have a two selection night menu then this buff is going to be postponed until the Unity port is done which will likely be somewhere around February. Your buff also wants to get rid of Disguiser and combine them into one role. It's just too much right now and I really don't know how I feel about removing a role.

Actually, I don’t care about the merging the Disguiser with my Framer overhaul (nor does anybody else). I just haven’t edited it out because the thread is locked (and I haven’t requested an unlock because it’s such a small detail). You can ignore that part of it. The rolecard on Parallax’s post is how it should be.
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Re: Testing Grounds Official Response

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:18 pm

Achilles wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:
Overhaul/Role by Dragonclaw66!

Thank you for reading, looking forward to the next developer update. ~TG



If you want Framer to have a two selection night menu then this buff is going to be postponed until the Unity port is done which will likely be somewhere around February. Your buff also wants to get rid of Disguiser and combine them into one role. It's just too much right now and I really don't know how I feel about removing a role.


Well, I think an overhaul for Disguiser could suffice. TG has that covered as well, would that be a point of interest?

Note:
Removal of Disguiser isn’t necessary.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Achilles » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:20 pm

I would prefer to buff both the Framer and Disguiser separately instead of combining them into one role.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby greenrabbit7 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:39 pm

Achilles wrote:I would prefer to buff both the Framer and Disguiser separately instead of combining them into one role.


Hm... Let's see. Alright, I think I can come up with one, but it'll make them a bit... weird.

Disguiser
Spoiler: Mafia(Deception)

You hide things, hide people. You're so good at hiding, you don't even know where your own freinds are.

Abilities:
Click the first button to censor all feedback for someone. Click the second button to make someone's visits invisible.

Attributes:
You can't see the mafia chat until a mafia member whispers you. You can, however, speak in it.
Once you are in the mafia chat, you can still censor them and make their visits astral
.

Goal: Mafia goal

Main problem i see here is i think there have been similar and bad roles. I just thought of this on the spot, so...

Framer
Spoiler: Mafia(deception)

Abilities:
Make someone say something three times.

Attributes:
During the night, click on someone and type a message you want them to say. If you type nothing, the ability is canceled.
During the day, you may click the sun. They will then say that message, instantly.
You may speak to the mafia at night

Goal: Mafia goal


This is chat manipulation and not all that useful without a blackmailer, and can also really fuck up the trial system. but hey, its a thing
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:19 pm

Achilles wrote:I would prefer to buff both the Framer and Disguiser separately instead of combining them into one role.

Yeah that's fair

At the TG we just stole our Framer from that original idea, without also taking the Disguiser.

We suggest ToS does the same, basically.
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that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby BS4125 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:33 am

Achilles wrote:I would prefer to buff both the Framer and Disguiser separately instead of combining them into one role.

Don’t worry, the overhaul does not require Disguiser to be removed or combined with Frsner in any way, and the TG and others are also against removing roles from the game in any shape or form since we are aware of the troubles when it comes to role removal from Shape.

The TG therefore has designed a suitable overhaul for the Disguiser instead rather than removal; if you are curious then it would be our pleasure to show you.

Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:54 pm

greenrabbit7 wrote:
Achilles wrote:I would prefer to buff both the Framer and Disguiser separately instead of combining them into one role.


Hm... Let's see. Alright, I think I can come up with one, but it'll make them a bit... weird.

Disguiser
Spoiler: Mafia(Deception)

You hide things, hide people. You're so good at hiding, you don't even know where your own freinds are.

Abilities:
Click the first button to censor all feedback for someone. Click the second button to make someone's visits invisible.

Attributes:
You can't see the mafia chat until a mafia member whispers you. You can, however, speak in it.
Once you are in the mafia chat, you can still censor them and make their visits astral
.

Goal: Mafia goal

Main problem i see here is i think there have been similar and bad roles. I just thought of this on the spot, so...

Framer
Spoiler: Mafia(deception)

Abilities:
Make someone say something three times.

Attributes:
During the night, click on someone and type a message you want them to say. If you type nothing, the ability is canceled.
During the day, you may click the sun. They will then say that message, instantly.
You may speak to the mafia at night

Goal: Mafia goal


This is chat manipulation and not all that useful without a blackmailer, and can also really fuck up the trial system. but hey, its a thing

This is not a place to suggest ideas that you just thought of.

Edit: Framer is not the only role who needs changes. Move onto others like Retributionist, Vigilante, Neutral Evils, Killings and basically every other role minus a few exceptions.
I am kindly telling you to fuck off mate.

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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Achilles » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:14 pm

BasicFourLife wrote:
greenrabbit7 wrote:
Achilles wrote:I would prefer to buff both the Framer and Disguiser separately instead of combining them into one role.


Hm... Let's see. Alright, I think I can come up with one, but it'll make them a bit... weird.

Disguiser
Spoiler: Mafia(Deception)

You hide things, hide people. You're so good at hiding, you don't even know where your own freinds are.

Abilities:
Click the first button to censor all feedback for someone. Click the second button to make someone's visits invisible.

Attributes:
You can't see the mafia chat until a mafia member whispers you. You can, however, speak in it.
Once you are in the mafia chat, you can still censor them and make their visits astral
.

Goal: Mafia goal

Main problem i see here is i think there have been similar and bad roles. I just thought of this on the spot, so...

Framer
Spoiler: Mafia(deception)

Abilities:
Make someone say something three times.

Attributes:
During the night, click on someone and type a message you want them to say. If you type nothing, the ability is canceled.
During the day, you may click the sun. They will then say that message, instantly.
You may speak to the mafia at night

Goal: Mafia goal


This is chat manipulation and not all that useful without a blackmailer, and can also really fuck up the trial system. but hey, its a thing

This is not a place to suggest ideas that you just thought of.

Edit: Framer is not the only role who needs changes. Move onto others like Retributionist, Vigilante, Neutral Evils, Killings and basically every other role minus a few exceptions.



It’s hard to take your suggestions seriously when you say every role in the game needs fixed. If things were that bad no one would play. It sounds like you won’t be happy until I redesign the entire game to your liking.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Parallax7 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:09 pm

Achilles wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
greenrabbit7 wrote:
Achilles wrote:I would prefer to buff both the Framer and Disguiser separately instead of combining them into one role.


Hm... Let's see. Alright, I think I can come up with one, but it'll make them a bit... weird.

Disguiser
Spoiler: Mafia(Deception)

You hide things, hide people. You're so good at hiding, you don't even know where your own freinds are.

Abilities:
Click the first button to censor all feedback for someone. Click the second button to make someone's visits invisible.

Attributes:
You can't see the mafia chat until a mafia member whispers you. You can, however, speak in it.
Once you are in the mafia chat, you can still censor them and make their visits astral
.

Goal: Mafia goal

Main problem i see here is i think there have been similar and bad roles. I just thought of this on the spot, so...

Framer
Spoiler: Mafia(deception)

Abilities:
Make someone say something three times.

Attributes:
During the night, click on someone and type a message you want them to say. If you type nothing, the ability is canceled.
During the day, you may click the sun. They will then say that message, instantly.
You may speak to the mafia at night

Goal: Mafia goal


This is chat manipulation and not all that useful without a blackmailer, and can also really fuck up the trial system. but hey, its a thing

This is not a place to suggest ideas that you just thought of.

Edit: Framer is not the only role who needs changes. Move onto others like Retributionist, Vigilante, Neutral Evils, Killings and basically every other role minus a few exceptions.



It’s hard to take your suggestions seriously when you say every role in the game needs fixed. If things were that bad no one would play. It sounds like you won’t be happy until I redesign the entire game to your liking.


He’s an extreemist/radical/far left/far right, 13 year old. There are improvements to be made, but the game isn’t bad by any stretch the of the imagination, ignore his destructive criticism.
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Spoiler:

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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby DragonClaw66 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:53 pm

Parallax7 wrote:
Achilles wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
greenrabbit7 wrote:
Achilles wrote:I would prefer to buff both the Framer and Disguiser separately instead of combining them into one role.


Hm... Let's see. Alright, I think I can come up with one, but it'll make them a bit... weird.

Disguiser
Spoiler: Mafia(Deception)

You hide things, hide people. You're so good at hiding, you don't even know where your own freinds are.

Abilities:
Click the first button to censor all feedback for someone. Click the second button to make someone's visits invisible.

Attributes:
You can't see the mafia chat until a mafia member whispers you. You can, however, speak in it.
Once you are in the mafia chat, you can still censor them and make their visits astral
.

Goal: Mafia goal

Main problem i see here is i think there have been similar and bad roles. I just thought of this on the spot, so...

Framer
Spoiler: Mafia(deception)

Abilities:
Make someone say something three times.

Attributes:
During the night, click on someone and type a message you want them to say. If you type nothing, the ability is canceled.
During the day, you may click the sun. They will then say that message, instantly.
You may speak to the mafia at night

Goal: Mafia goal


This is chat manipulation and not all that useful without a blackmailer, and can also really fuck up the trial system. but hey, its a thing

This is not a place to suggest ideas that you just thought of.

Edit: Framer is not the only role who needs changes. Move onto others like Retributionist, Vigilante, Neutral Evils, Killings and basically every other role minus a few exceptions.



It’s hard to take your suggestions seriously when you say every role in the game needs fixed. If things were that bad no one would play. It sounds like you won’t be happy until I redesign the entire game to your liking.


He’s an extreemist/radical/far left/far right, 13 year old. There are improvements to be made, but the game isn’t bad by any stretch the of the imagination, ignore his destructive criticism.

I'm not saying that every role requires a major change, but many do [need/could receive] some small ones (I think this is what Basic was saying). The Sheriff should have evils grouped into one "suspicious" result so that Neutral Killings can claim framed in some scenarios, the immunity message that any attacking role would receive (along with no result during a heal or Witch autovest) should be changed to a generic "you were unable to kill your target" so that evils can claim healed when attacked, etc. These things aren't major, but they do change the game for the better; the Town roles are nerfed, but only slightly. Obviously, these are very small and aren't necessary or needed ASAP, but they would help.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Kirize12 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:22 am

Parallax7 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:Framer will also need tools to make it effective in the case of a dead TI.


Does this mean Consort needs tools, if Medium, Jailor, Transporter, Veteran, Escort, Spy, Mayor, are the only town roles left?

The difference between the scenarios is that this is such a rare combination it can be regarded as non-existent. Several of these roles are high-profile targets you want to kill so you aren't in this scenario, others can easily be edited to be roleblockable if need be, and ultimately, a lot of these roles are so confirmable that if it gets down to this the game will likely end.

(it's also worth noting that in this scenario, Framer would also be unable to act. these scenarios are more common for framer than they are for cnosort. also, Spy is roleblockable)

Parallax7 wrote:No - it doesn’t, part of being a role, is literally in the word itself. Fulfilling a role, duty, or obligation. Mafia is offensive, and so having a roles that specialize is mostly acceptable. If they can no longer specialize, they’ve either fulfilled their duty, or weren’t needed to begin with.

But then we have mafia citizens without town citizens. We're essentially punishing the mafia for doing the right thing - they want to kill TI's earlier on, but that comes with a negative effect as Framer is made worthless.

Adding stuff such as Caporegime or Mafia Tactical does not justify this. No town role is useless in any mafia combination, but Framer is.

Parallax7 wrote:This is basically the same as claiming Town Killing should be able to do other things because town can lynch people.

Town Killing gets rid of mafia faster, so the next lynch has one less person manipulating it, along with the usual benefits of killing scum. Town Killing helps town win faster.

Framer doesn't have this same effect on the game. If there's no one for TK's to kill, town wins. Can you honestly say the same for Framer with TI's?

orangeandblack5 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:Framer will also need tools to make it effective in the case of a dead TI.

I'm not sure I agree with that - at that point it'll be a different role, and while (as stated by multiple people in the official TG statement) that would ultimately be best it's a big leap from Framer's current role.

Given the way ToS plays out, ultimately if all TIs are dead the Mafia usually wins. This isn't true if all of the Town players are really good, but even then this is a massive improvement because of the raised skill ceiling. All in all, it's the best simple solution by far.

It would literally be a framer, but with one or two more abilities.

Hell, we could replace Disguiser with TG Disguiser and merge current Disguiser and Framer. That way, Framer's issue is fixed, Disguiser has utility beyond death, no mechanics are removed from the game, and Framer stays more or less the same.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby BasicFourLife » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:57 am

Achilles wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
greenrabbit7 wrote:
Achilles wrote:I would prefer to buff both the Framer and Disguiser separately instead of combining them into one role.


Hm... Let's see. Alright, I think I can come up with one, but it'll make them a bit... weird.

Disguiser
Spoiler: Mafia(Deception)

You hide things, hide people. You're so good at hiding, you don't even know where your own freinds are.

Abilities:
Click the first button to censor all feedback for someone. Click the second button to make someone's visits invisible.

Attributes:
You can't see the mafia chat until a mafia member whispers you. You can, however, speak in it.
Once you are in the mafia chat, you can still censor them and make their visits astral
.

Goal: Mafia goal

Main problem i see here is i think there have been similar and bad roles. I just thought of this on the spot, so...

Framer
Spoiler: Mafia(deception)

Abilities:
Make someone say something three times.

Attributes:
During the night, click on someone and type a message you want them to say. If you type nothing, the ability is canceled.
During the day, you may click the sun. They will then say that message, instantly.
You may speak to the mafia at night

Goal: Mafia goal


This is chat manipulation and not all that useful without a blackmailer, and can also really fuck up the trial system. but hey, its a thing

This is not a place to suggest ideas that you just thought of.

Edit: Framer is not the only role who needs changes. Move onto others like Retributionist, Vigilante, Neutral Evils, Killings and basically every other role minus a few exceptions.


It’s hard to take your suggestions seriously when you say every role in the game needs fixed. If things were that bad no one would play. It sounds like you won’t be happy until I redesign the entire game to your liking.

I’m talking about competitive only and you are taking things in a general stance. Additionally, many changes are minor and don’t need to exist. They only make it better but are not necessary. And an unbalanced game has nothing to do with the amount of players in other modes excluding the competitive ones. But people still play the competitive modes for other reasons, but it could have much higher success if it was actually more focused on. My personal feelings don’t have anything to do with how I feel about the game’s current balance stance.

What I was trying to say was that there are many other roles or mechanics that can be improved and not just Framer. And the reason I implied that other changes could be made, because you said that the TG Framer could not be implemented ‘till Unity, because it required Framer to be made into a two button role and that’s why I started looking into other options.

When TG suggested Dragonclaw’s Framer rework, specifically said that a part of it you focused on the thread and some Disguiser part which didn’t matter at all mostly avoiding the real thing. And now this.
I am kindly telling you to fuck off mate.

FM / TG: 5 - 10 - 8
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Achilles » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:37 pm

BasicFourLife wrote:
Achilles wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
greenrabbit7 wrote:
Achilles wrote:I would prefer to buff both the Framer and Disguiser separately instead of combining them into one role.


Hm... Let's see. Alright, I think I can come up with one, but it'll make them a bit... weird.

Disguiser
Spoiler: Mafia(Deception)

You hide things, hide people. You're so good at hiding, you don't even know where your own freinds are.

Abilities:
Click the first button to censor all feedback for someone. Click the second button to make someone's visits invisible.

Attributes:
You can't see the mafia chat until a mafia member whispers you. You can, however, speak in it.
Once you are in the mafia chat, you can still censor them and make their visits astral
.

Goal: Mafia goal

Main problem i see here is i think there have been similar and bad roles. I just thought of this on the spot, so...

Framer
Spoiler: Mafia(deception)

Abilities:
Make someone say something three times.

Attributes:
During the night, click on someone and type a message you want them to say. If you type nothing, the ability is canceled.
During the day, you may click the sun. They will then say that message, instantly.
You may speak to the mafia at night

Goal: Mafia goal


This is chat manipulation and not all that useful without a blackmailer, and can also really fuck up the trial system. but hey, its a thing

This is not a place to suggest ideas that you just thought of.

Edit: Framer is not the only role who needs changes. Move onto others like Retributionist, Vigilante, Neutral Evils, Killings and basically every other role minus a few exceptions.


It’s hard to take your suggestions seriously when you say every role in the game needs fixed. If things were that bad no one would play. It sounds like you won’t be happy until I redesign the entire game to your liking.

I’m talking about competitive only and you are taking things in a general stance. Additionally, many changes are minor and don’t need to exist. They only make it better but are not necessary. And an unbalanced game has nothing to do with the amount of players in other modes excluding the competitive ones. But people still play the competitive modes for other reasons, but it could have much higher success if it was actually more focused on. My personal feelings don’t have anything to do with how I feel about the game’s current balance stance.

What I was trying to say was that there are many other roles or mechanics that can be improved and not just Framer. And the reason I implied that other changes could be made, because you said that the TG Framer could not be implemented ‘till Unity, because it required Framer to be made into a two button role and that’s why I started looking into other options.

When TG suggested Dragonclaw’s Framer rework, specifically said that a part of it you focused on the thread and some Disguiser part which didn’t matter at all mostly avoiding the real thing. And now this.


Fair enough. I think the best course of action is to put Framer on the back burner and start discussion on what other roles are in need of some love and can hopefully be fixed without a bunch of client changes.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Parallax7 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:48 pm

Achilles wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
Achilles wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
greenrabbit7 wrote:
Achilles wrote:I would prefer to buff both the Framer and Disguiser separately instead of combining them into one role.


Hm... Let's see. Alright, I think I can come up with one, but it'll make them a bit... weird.

Disguiser
Spoiler: Mafia(Deception)

You hide things, hide people. You're so good at hiding, you don't even know where your own freinds are.

Abilities:
Click the first button to censor all feedback for someone. Click the second button to make someone's visits invisible.

Attributes:
You can't see the mafia chat until a mafia member whispers you. You can, however, speak in it.
Once you are in the mafia chat, you can still censor them and make their visits astral
.

Goal: Mafia goal

Main problem i see here is i think there have been similar and bad roles. I just thought of this on the spot, so...

Framer
Spoiler: Mafia(deception)

Abilities:
Make someone say something three times.

Attributes:
During the night, click on someone and type a message you want them to say. If you type nothing, the ability is canceled.
During the day, you may click the sun. They will then say that message, instantly.
You may speak to the mafia at night

Goal: Mafia goal


This is chat manipulation and not all that useful without a blackmailer, and can also really fuck up the trial system. but hey, its a thing

This is not a place to suggest ideas that you just thought of.

Edit: Framer is not the only role who needs changes. Move onto others like Retributionist, Vigilante, Neutral Evils, Killings and basically every other role minus a few exceptions.


It’s hard to take your suggestions seriously when you say every role in the game needs fixed. If things were that bad no one would play. It sounds like you won’t be happy until I redesign the entire game to your liking.

I’m talking about competitive only and you are taking things in a general stance. Additionally, many changes are minor and don’t need to exist. They only make it better but are not necessary. And an unbalanced game has nothing to do with the amount of players in other modes excluding the competitive ones. But people still play the competitive modes for other reasons, but it could have much higher success if it was actually more focused on. My personal feelings don’t have anything to do with how I feel about the game’s current balance stance.

What I was trying to say was that there are many other roles or mechanics that can be improved and not just Framer. And the reason I implied that other changes could be made, because you said that the TG Framer could not be implemented ‘till Unity, because it required Framer to be made into a two button role and that’s why I started looking into other options.

When TG suggested Dragonclaw’s Framer rework, specifically said that a part of it you focused on the thread and some Disguiser part which didn’t matter at all mostly avoiding the real thing. And now this.


Fair enough. I think the best course of action is to put Framer on the back burner and start discussion on what other roles are in need of some love and can hopefully be fixed without a bunch of client changes.


start discussion on what other roles are in need of some love and can hopefully be fixed


So when we implementin Butcher as a Werewolf replacement???
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Chemist1422 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:51 pm

Parallax7 wrote:
Achilles wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
Achilles wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
greenrabbit7 wrote:
Achilles wrote:I would prefer to buff both the Framer and Disguiser separately instead of combining them into one role.


Hm... Let's see. Alright, I think I can come up with one, but it'll make them a bit... weird.

Disguiser
Spoiler: Mafia(Deception)

You hide things, hide people. You're so good at hiding, you don't even know where your own freinds are.

Abilities:
Click the first button to censor all feedback for someone. Click the second button to make someone's visits invisible.

Attributes:
You can't see the mafia chat until a mafia member whispers you. You can, however, speak in it.
Once you are in the mafia chat, you can still censor them and make their visits astral
.

Goal: Mafia goal

Main problem i see here is i think there have been similar and bad roles. I just thought of this on the spot, so...

Framer
Spoiler: Mafia(deception)

Abilities:
Make someone say something three times.

Attributes:
During the night, click on someone and type a message you want them to say. If you type nothing, the ability is canceled.
During the day, you may click the sun. They will then say that message, instantly.
You may speak to the mafia at night

Goal: Mafia goal


This is chat manipulation and not all that useful without a blackmailer, and can also really fuck up the trial system. but hey, its a thing

This is not a place to suggest ideas that you just thought of.

Edit: Framer is not the only role who needs changes. Move onto others like Retributionist, Vigilante, Neutral Evils, Killings and basically every other role minus a few exceptions.


It’s hard to take your suggestions seriously when you say every role in the game needs fixed. If things were that bad no one would play. It sounds like you won’t be happy until I redesign the entire game to your liking.

I’m talking about competitive only and you are taking things in a general stance. Additionally, many changes are minor and don’t need to exist. They only make it better but are not necessary. And an unbalanced game has nothing to do with the amount of players in other modes excluding the competitive ones. But people still play the competitive modes for other reasons, but it could have much higher success if it was actually more focused on. My personal feelings don’t have anything to do with how I feel about the game’s current balance stance.

What I was trying to say was that there are many other roles or mechanics that can be improved and not just Framer. And the reason I implied that other changes could be made, because you said that the TG Framer could not be implemented ‘till Unity, because it required Framer to be made into a two button role and that’s why I started looking into other options.

When TG suggested Dragonclaw’s Framer rework, specifically said that a part of it you focused on the thread and some Disguiser part which didn’t matter at all mostly avoiding the real thing. And now this.


Fair enough. I think the best course of action is to put Framer on the back burner and start discussion on what other roles are in need of some love and can hopefully be fixed without a bunch of client changes.


start discussion on what other roles are in need of some love and can hopefully be fixed


So when we implementin Butcher as a Werewolf replacement???

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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby RevengeoftheRaccoon » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:30 pm

Achilles wrote:
Start discussion on what other roles are in need of some love and can hopefully be fixed without a bunch of client changes.


r e t r i b u t i o n i s t
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Kikigiri » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:41 pm

BasicFourLife wrote:Edit: Framer is not the only role who needs changes. Move onto others like Retributionist, Vigilante, Neutral Evils, Killings and basically every other role minus a few exceptions.
One thing at a time.

Also, I feel that the Framer and Disguiser are higher priority. There are balance issues with some of the ones you mentioned, but they're (comparatively) minor. All those roles work and currently serve a purpose. Framers and Disguisers, on the other hand, feel so weak that they're completely unfun to play.

For Framer, I still feel my old suggestion of "show up as Mafioso in the graveyard if you die to non-mafia that night or if you get lynched the next day" is ideal. It's straightforward, serves as a logical extension of the Framer's purpose, and would allow them to accomplish something when there are no TIs (so they no longer rely on other roles to have a purpose.)

I'd combine this with a few other things, like fooling Trackers or Lookouts (make the target seem like an extra visit to whoever the Mafia Killer visits), Psychics (make the target count as evil), etc. But overall I don't feel a Framer fix is that hard. There's some more fancy stuff that could be done with extra buttons or the like, but this alone would make them much more valuable.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby BasicFourLife » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:20 pm

Change the current Alignment Cop to Guilty/Innocent Cop

What this means is that Sheriff only gets Suspicious/Not Suspicious, this isn’t a nerf to the Sheriff but more so of a buff to Neutral Killings allowing them to claim framed due to being paired with Mafia.

This would be a really change, small and easily implementable change.


But there’s also Blackmailer who could use a change. Replacing the blackmail ability with Lookout’s identical ability and keeping the ability to read whispers.

This would have a great affect on the meta, because Lookouts are always proven and provide so much info to the Town and Blackmailer’s current ability is very toxic and useless.


There’s also many other changes that could be done but I feel like these are the most simple and logical ones.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Kikigiri » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:08 am

Change the current Alignment Cop to Guilty/Innocent Cop

What this means is that Sheriff only gets Suspicious/Not Suspicious, this isn’t a nerf to the Sheriff but more so of a buff to Neutral Killings allowing them to claim framed due to being paired with Mafia.

This would be a really change, small and easily implementable change.
The problem with the Framer isn't its interaction with the Sheriff. The problem is that it has no interaction with anything but the Sheriff and the Investigator, which makes it extremely unlikely that it will actually accomplish anything -and is sometimes utterly useless because the investigatives are lookouts and spies. (With spies, every investigator visit is actively counterproductive, at least at the moment.)
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby BasicFourLife » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:08 pm

Kikigiri wrote:
Change the current Alignment Cop to Guilty/Innocent Cop

What this means is that Sheriff only gets Suspicious/Not Suspicious, this isn’t a nerf to the Sheriff but more so of a buff to Neutral Killings allowing them to claim framed due to being paired with Mafia.

This would be a really change, small and easily implementable change.
The problem with the Framer isn't its interaction with the Sheriff. The problem is that it has no interaction with anything but the Sheriff and the Investigator, which makes it extremely unlikely that it will actually accomplish anything -and is sometimes utterly useless because the investigatives are lookouts and spies. (With spies, every investigator visit is actively counterproductive, at least at the moment.)

The change isn’t meant for Framer, although it affects it. I know about this, you don’t need to tell me.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby TheDebil » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:35 pm

RevengeoftheRaccoon wrote:
Achilles wrote:
Start discussion on what other roles are in need of some love and can hopefully be fixed without a bunch of client changes.


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+

there is plently of people asking for a retri nerf, i am one of them.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Achilles » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:19 pm

The Sheriff change is a pretty easy server only change (and a little client XML) if there is a lot of agreement on that.
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