Dev Update 11/20/2018

[Achilles]

I’m most heavily learning towards giving framer stealth visits (not seen by spy lookout tracker) as well as making the framed target visits show to spy. Edit: phone posting

Additional potential is to let framer “unframe” his teammates, but I don’t know what invest result we could show that wouldn’t still make that player have suspicion cast on them.

[Chemist1422]

Stealth visits are a big yes imo

I personally like FM framer, which can choose which invest result its target shows up as

[Parallax7]

Framer Overhaul

Having Framer swap the information investigator sees instead of just seeing the framer feedback is interesting. Doing a double selection night menu is problematic. I’m trying to do changes that don’t distract Client guys too much while they work on Unity. If this ends up being the chosen change it will be a while before this comes out.

Not a fan of removing existing roles like Disguiser.

Below I will provide the Testing Ground’s official Disguiser overhaul.

Spoiler: Disguiser

Alignment: Mafia Support

Abilities:
- Choose two people to trick at night.

Attributes:
- Tricking two people will swap who they are targeting.
- You may only perform 3 tricks.
- Your targets will not know they were tricked.

Stats:
Attack: None
Defense: None

Goal: Kill anyone that will not submit to the Mafia.

More changes like this, can be found here.

As for the change, I personally think the popular Frame + Focus ability is the way to go, however, I’d remove Framer as a whole, and implement a system in which Framing is an innate passive ability the entire mafia has, (one member of the mafia will have the framing ability, similar to the necro, and when they die it will be passed on. This could be done in tandem with their primary ability.) This way the ambiguity of a player being suspicious isn’t RNG dependent, and evildoers, specifically mafia have a much better protection against investigators, and the balance issue of a niche role like Framer is eliminated entirely.

[orangeandblack5]

I’m most heavily learning towards giving framer stealth visits (not seen by spy lookout tracker) as well as making the framed target visits show to spy. Edit: phone posting

Additional potential is to let framer “unframe” his teammates, but I don’t know what invest result we could show that wouldn’t still make that player have suspicion cast on them.

I would be overjoyed if this were the route we took, although I don't know that Framer's visits need to be stealthy to the Tracker/Lookout so much as if the Tracker/Lookout see framed targets visiting the Mafia Killer's target

Unframing is nice but all in all I've heard some very sound arguments against it

I don't remember them exactly atm but if you start to consider it over the thing you first said I'll see if I can remember them

[Achilles]

I’m most heavily learning towards giving framer stealth visits (not seen by spy lookout tracker) as well as making the framed target visits show to spy. Edit: phone posting

Additional potential is to let framer “unframe” his teammates, but I don’t know what invest result we could show that wouldn’t still make that player have suspicion cast on them.

I would be overjoyed if this were the route we took, although I don't know that Framer's visits need to be stealthy to the Tracker/Lookout so much as if the Tracker/Lookout see framed targets visiting the Mafia Killer's target

Unframing is nice but all in all I've heard some very sound arguments against it

I don't remember them exactly atm but if you start to consider it over the thing you first said I'll see if I can remember them

I’m not a big fan of having an edge case just for the Spy. I think Framer should have stealth visits matching how other stealth roles work. The more edge case role interactions we have the more confusing the game gets

[testaccount1234]

As for the change, I personally think the popular Frame + Focus ability is the way to go, however, I’d remove Framer as a whole, and implement a system in which Framing is an innate passive ability the entire mafia has, (one member of the mafia will have the framing ability, similar to the necro, and when they die it will be passed on. This could be done in tandem with their primary ability.) This way the ambiguity of a player being suspicious isn’t RNG dependent, and evildoers, specifically mafia have a much better protection against investigators, and the balance issue of a niche role like Framer is eliminated entirely.

Popular? Since when?

Remove framer? Yeah, Achilles is not gonna do that and you even quoted him on that.

Besides I think what you're suggesting is too complicated for Town of Salem.

[orangeandblack5]

I’m most heavily learning towards giving framer stealth visits (not seen by spy lookout tracker) as well as making the framed target visits show to spy. Edit: phone posting

Additional potential is to let framer “unframe” his teammates, but I don’t know what invest result we could show that wouldn’t still make that player have suspicion cast on them.

I would be overjoyed if this were the route we took, although I don't know that Framer's visits need to be stealthy to the Tracker/Lookout so much as if the Tracker/Lookout see framed targets visiting the Mafia Killer's target

Unframing is nice but all in all I've heard some very sound arguments against it

I don't remember them exactly atm but if you start to consider it over the thing you first said I'll see if I can remember them

I’m not a big fan of having an edge case just for the Spy. I think Framer should have stealth visits matching how other stealth roles work. The more edge case role interactions we have the more confusing the game gets

I'm not sure it's really an edge case if he simply frames them as visiting the Mafia kill target. The Lookout would see their real visit too, depending on who they watch, so you're definitely just adding an extra framed visit there, and just like with Sheriff/Investigator you're replacing the result with an incriminating one for Tracker.

If finding a framed person as Suspicious isn't confusing for players, neither should tracking them to a kill and finding out they were framed, nor watching somebody who died and seeing them alongside the Mafioso.

[BasicFourLife]

Stealth visits for the Framer wouldn’t do anything against Lookout/Tracker/Spy. It would only help it to deal with Sheriff/Investigator more efficiently which is the same thing which happens with the current change.

It needs a way to fool them too. And that’s where the focus ability comes in. Allow it to create a fake visit, removing the original visit. This would have an amazing impact from the meta due to Mafia being able to claim framed if caught by Lookouts/Trackers. For only Spy, the stealth visit works here since you can’t really do anything else that would allow you to fool Spies as Framer.

I quite like the idea to buff framer. It has been quite an upsetting role to get in game. Although I have seen people work wonders with it. It's interesting to give town more reason to doubt sheriffs. I think this change may at least modify the way teamwork works in the game from now onward. I'm not saying it's a game breaking change but perhaps the poor sheriff should be next on the list to be looked at considering his new role as "Constantly doubted"

Sheriff is the most balanced role in the entire game. The only change it needs is to classify all Mafia/Coven/Detectable NKs as “Suspicious,” which gives NKs the ability to claim framed. Otherwise it needs no changes.

[greenrabbit7]

I do not approve of this framer buff, as it removes any strategy framer once had. I believe they should have looked at existing reworks in the TG instead.

[greenrabbit7]

This is why I hate doing balance changes. Everytime it's an immediate hatred of any change, polls and rage wanting it reverted and I end up wasting a bunch of my time. You realize that this Framer change only puts it on par with dousing and hexing that are both permanent?

Post your suggested Framer changes that you think are better than this and I will read over and consider them.

If you want to make a permanent frame, make it so frames do something else too. Maybe they nulify all night feedback for that person, or they allow the framer to see who that person visits at night permenantly too?

[BasicFourLife]

This is why I hate doing balance changes. Everytime it's an immediate hatred of any change, polls and rage wanting it reverted and I end up wasting a bunch of my time. You realize that this Framer change only puts it on par with dousing and hexing that are both permanent?

Post your suggested Framer changes that you think are better than this and I will read over and consider them.

If you want to make a permanent frame, make it so frames do something else too. Maybe they nulify all night feedback for that person, or they allow the framer to see who that person visits at night permenantly too?

That’s Silencer’s job.

[BS4125]

Hi Achilles, first of all thank you so much for not only informing us of the changes you plan to make before they are implemented but also listening and brainstorming with us on the issue, it really positively effects not only the community but the Dev team and the game as a whole. I’m excited for what’s to come

Pertaining to the topic, I believe the best way to tackle Framer’s problem is to target the root of it: it’s varability in power. For example, if the Framer is in a game where Town Investigative rolls the Sheriff or Investigator it will have a greater influence on the game than if it rolls Lookout, Spy etc, where it will have none at all.

This therefore means that Framer should have an additional effect on the other roles to balance out this instability, which is why I recommend the buff that DragonClaw66 posted and which the TG uses currently.

If you need anymore help with balance and roles, I know others as much as me would love to help you out and ease your strain as much as possible. Thank you for your time.

[Lovebel0w]

This is why I hate doing balance changes. Everytime it's an immediate hatred of any change, polls and rage wanting it reverted and I end up wasting a bunch of my time. You realize that this Framer change only puts it on par with dousing and hexing that are both permanent?

Post your suggested Framer changes that you think are better than this and I will read over and consider them.

I appreciate your work in changing the role and consider it to be a net positive despite seeming overpowered at a glance because if anything mafia as a faction is in a pretty dire state in terms of winrates right now and needs all the help it can get. In regards to concerns about balancing in the future, I would highly consider forming a balance council of volunteer (users), similar to the volunteer trial judge panel that exists, to assist with and give input on future balance changes. Having this kind of go between between the staff and the userbase as a whole could be incredibly valuable. This idea has been used in other competitive games that I've played in the past and I think it's worked very well and would suit the setup in tos. Again thanks for buffing framer, looking forward to seeing the change.

[BasicFourLife]

This is why I hate doing balance changes. Everytime it's an immediate hatred of any change, polls and rage wanting it reverted and I end up wasting a bunch of my time. You realize that this Framer change only puts it on par with dousing and hexing that are both permanent?

Post your suggested Framer changes that you think are better than this and I will read over and consider them.

Framer Overhaul

I think this is what Framer needs, except for the disguise part, that the Forger Overhaul does better.

Anyway, thanks for fixing the other issues guys!

Nothing has been fixed so far, what?

[Jerme]

This is why I hate doing balance changes. Everytime it's an immediate hatred of any change, polls and rage wanting it reverted and I end up wasting a bunch of my time. You realize that this Framer change only puts it on par with dousing and hexing that are both permanent?

Post your suggested Framer changes that you think are better than this and I will read over and consider them.

Framer Overhaul

I think this is what Framer needs, except for the disguise part, that the Forger Overhaul does better.

Anyway, thanks for fixing the other issues guys!

Nothing has been fixed so far, what?

You are mistaken on that. There are other things than roles that are part of this game. There were a lot of bug fixes, both clientsided issues on mobile and server sided issue based on roleinteraction.

[BasicFourLife]

Achilles, if you want to prove yourself as a good Developer then you can start by listening to the feedback. Also, you said that you hate doing balance changes but why are you the one in charge of them then? Why don't include the RI/TG Developers in the conversations before making any decisions. As I can clearly tell, this balance change was rushed and it no one seemed to know it was going (I mean the change, we knew that a Framer change was coming for years now but not which one).

[Parallax7]

Achilles, if you want to prove yourself as a good Developer then you can start by listening to the feedback. Also, you said that you hate doing balance changes but why are you the one in charge of them then? Why don't include the RI/TG Developers in the conversations before making any decisions. As I can clearly tell, this balance change was rushed and it no one seemed to know it was going (I mean the change, we knew that a Framer change was coming for years now but not which one).

Hence why I myself included TG’s disguiser overhaul.

You guys do realize the TG represents Role Ideas as a community, and does this game balance stuff for you guys, right? So by implementing our changes, you’re effectively satisfying the Role Ideas community, a majority of users who really even care about balance.

[Achilles]

Thank you everyone for the feedback and happy thanksgiving. I’m going to be spending some time with my family and I will catch up on everything when I get back.

[BS4125]

Thank you everyone for the feedback and happy thanksgiving. I’m going to be spending some time with my family and I will catch up on everything when I get back.

Right it’s thanksgiving this week, we don’t celebrate it in the UK (of course)
Have a great thanksgiving man

[greenrabbit7]

Achilles, if you want to prove yourself as a good Developer then you can start by listening to the feedback. Also, you said that you hate doing balance changes but why are you the one in charge of them then? Why don't include the RI/TG Developers in the conversations before making any decisions. As I can clearly tell, this balance change was rushed and it no one seemed to know it was going (I mean the change, we knew that a Framer change was coming for years now but not which one).

God, basic. Can you stop just constantly insulting the guy?

[orangeandblack5]

I'm in agreement there - no part of being a good dev explicitly involves listening to the TG people

Not ignoring them, yes, but I think it's clear the feedback is being listened to here already. Definitely time to chill out lol

[Gooose26]

Here is my favorite Framer “rework” which has been tested many times and overall has performed well:

Spoiler: Framer

Alignment: Mafia Support

Abilities:
- Watch one person each night to see who visits them.

Attributes:
- You can talk with the other Mafia at night.
- You may instead perform the factional Mafia kill.

Stats:
Attack: None
Defense: None

Goal: Kill anyone that will not submit to the Mafia.

Framing is simply a hardcounter, and I do not believe that any change will be able to bring it to a position where it is acceptable and not a hardcounter to the Town Investigative alignment. This role, however, can work as a replacement for Framer.

As far as the utility of TG, I would like to take note of the Allegory of the Cave. TG has seen so much more balance than really anywhere else found in the ToS community, and for this reason we are the most qualified to lead when it comes to balancing. Does that give us a moral right to making ToS balancing decisions? No, but we would have an enormous effect on the game in a positive way if we were given the chance. Average players who do not understand balance are living in a cave, so to speak, and don’t have the ability to lead balance decisions for ToS effectively. This situation is parallel to how Plato believed a government should be run, in which he believed in philosopher rule(where philosophers make all of the important decisions). I agree completely.

Also, Happy Thanksgiving!

[Razbae]

Maybe instead of posting what you're going to change and changing it without asking the community first, you should try uh...asking the community. Then you wouldn't see such a backlash and feel like you're fighting your customers over what should be done. How can you make the community happy if you're doing/planning stuff without talking about it? I understand that's what you're trying to do now, but the very first post on this thread is, "I'M CHANGING THE GAME BIG TIME". Yikes.

Make a thread asking for role changes > collect the top 5/however many are reasonable to you > have the community vote on one > implement that one. It's really not that hard. Don't force stuff on us and work together.

[BasicFourLife]

Maybe instead of posting what you're going to change and changing it without asking the community first, you should try uh...asking the community. Then you wouldn't see such a backlash and feel like you're fighting your customers over what should be done. How can you make the community happy if you're doing/planning stuff without talking about it? I understand that's what you're trying to do now, but the very first post on this thread is, "I'M CHANGING THE GAME BIG TIME". Yikes.

Make a thread asking for role changes > collect the top 5/however many are reasonable to you > have the community vote on one > implement that one. It's really not that hard. Don't force stuff on us and work together.

This would be horrible. Community still wants Any back in Ranked, so it wouldn’t work

[Amythyr]

Maybe instead of posting what you're going to change and changing it without asking the community first, you should try uh...asking the community. Then you wouldn't see such a backlash and feel like you're fighting your customers over what should be done. How can you make the community happy if you're doing/planning stuff without talking about it? I understand that's what you're trying to do now, but the very first post on this thread is, "I'M CHANGING THE GAME BIG TIME". Yikes.

Make a thread asking for role changes > collect the top 5/however many are reasonable to you > have the community vote on one > implement that one. It's really not that hard. Don't force stuff on us and work together.

This would be horrible. Community still wants Any back in Ranked, so it wouldn’t work

Also forums have only a small percentage of active players in it. So data will not be right at all. It is much better to implement the changes without making polls imo