Dev Update 11/20/2018

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Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Achilles » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:09 pm

What I've worked on since the previous update:

General bug fixes and optimizations
* Server side enforcing the max chat character size of 140
* Server removing any extra newlines in chat that could cause display issues
* Fixed bug that would sometimes prevent vampires from being able to attack and cause the Vampire Hunter to promote to Vigilante before all Vampires were dead
* Fixed bug where both Mafioso and Godfather could die to visiting a stone gazing Medusa
* Fixed a bug that would have an SK kill a Pirate the following night even if the Pirate won the duel
* Sanitized old ranked analytics data that wasn't removed when a previous employee changed the system
* Greatly improved server error logging by splitting "critical" errors into their own log file so they aren't spammed with general logging
* Fixed a bug that prevented random house customization from working correctly
* Sanitized legacy shop code left over from when a previous employee changed the system
* Improved database storage space by removing unused data
* Turn on free Coven weekend

Final pass on referral system
I have wrapped up the remaining Server work on the referral system. We are putting the final polish and testing pass on the system and expect to release it next week after the holidays. We want to prevent users from openly sharing referral codes to strangers on the internet and opening up Town of Salem to bots or abusive players so we will be enforcing a system where the main account linked to the referral codes will be suspended if the referred account is banned during their trial period (5 games). If the referred account upgrades to premium the referrer is no longer responsible for them and will not be punished if they are banned later on. The system is meant to invite your friends to try out the game and we want to prevent thousands of codes from flooding internet sites like Reddit where we know the botters still lurk.

Framer buff
I have made changes to have frames be permanent instead of for a single night. This should be a very large buff to the Framer and allow a better meta for the Mafia to develop. This change is expected to go live next week after the holidays.

POST EDIT NOTE:
To make sure that everyone is up to date on the conversation, the permanent frames are likely not the thing we are leaning towards. Make sure to read through the thread if you can before posting your opinion as our strategy for this buff is evolving with the conversation.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Chemist1422 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:10 pm

YEE FRAMER BUFF

FINALLY
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby fwogcarf » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:41 pm

FRAMER ACTUALLY MATTERS NOW
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby WittyRecluse » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:01 am

Achilles, since you've mentioned ranked data, is there any chance that you would be implementing an update to the elo system that calculates elo in terms of expected winrates (based on the average elo of everyone in the lobby), rather than compared to the global winrate (which is pretty skewed, iirc town had something like 47% globally which means that elo calculations in master elo where town has like 80% winrate are completely messed up)? Seems like if you have a decent sample of data you can probably calculate the average town winrate for each elo bracket for instance and use those numbers to calculate elo, instead of our current system which is causing a ton of rating inflation at the top level.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:06 am

I can not even begin how absolutely terrible this buff is. I knew something like this would happen.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:13 am

Can I chime in and say that I think this is entirely the wrong Framer buff?

It does nothing concerning one of Framer's main issues - it's literally useless in games without a Sheriff or Investigator, or games where you already killed those roles.

Instead we're making it swingier by buffing it in the cases where it works by a LOT without touching the cases where it doesn't work.

I highly recommend that we take a step back and reconsider this particular buff. I think it's likely to overall make Frsmer more powerful, but not in a way that is good for the game.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:18 am

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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Sl007 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:33 am

I would like to see framer affect all ti’s like being immune to spy or the night the mafia kills a lot will also see the target or something
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Schultz128 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:33 am

That buff ain't it, chief.

I feel like these balance changes rival Blizzard for the crown of terrible balancing.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby DragonClaw66 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:01 am

I was on the "Jester and Framer Buff Ideas" page and ElderSivart commented that a buff had been announced for the Framer. I was seriously ecstatic that one of my favorite roles was finally going to get buffed... with permanent frames... seriously? The Framer is not supposed to be able to trick players that easily, otherwise it would completely negate the effect of the Investigator or Sheriff. The purpose of a Framer is to have an ability that can trick all Town Investigatives at the expense of the ability succeeding only once in a while. Please don't add this buff.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Gooose26 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:17 am

Achilles wrote:Framer buff
I have made changes to have frames be permanent instead of for a single night. This should be a very large buff to the Framer and allow a better meta for the Mafia to develop. This change is expected to go live next week after the holidays.

While I agree that Framer needed a buff, I would also argue that Framer is not mechanically sound, so to speak. What I mean is that, even if it had perfectly good power(not too strong, not too weak), it will still not work very well in-game. This is because it is a hardcounter, meaning that it is built to defeat just 1(or in this case 2) roles in the game. Because of this, buffing Framer does not make it more balanced, it is only weakening Sheriff and Investigator, and for this reason, I do not support a Framer buff.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby ElderSivart » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:22 am

Gooose26 wrote:
Achilles wrote:Framer buff
I have made changes to have frames be permanent instead of for a single night. This should be a very large buff to the Framer and allow a better meta for the Mafia to develop. This change is expected to go live next week after the holidays.

While I agree that Framer needed a buff, I would also argue that Framer is not mechanically sound, so to speak. What I mean is that, even if it had perfectly good power(not too strong, not too weak), it will still not work very well in-game. This is because it is a hardcounter, meaning that it is built to defeat just 1(or in this case 2) roles in the game. Because of this, buffing Framer does not make it more balanced, it is only weakening Sheriff and Investigator, and for this reason, I do not support a Framer buff.

tbh it doesn't really even counter Investigator that well because Framer/Jester/Vamp is often more likely Jester or Framed than Framer or Vamp (which doesn't even appear in ranked).
All it really does is keep them from getting a good result for a night, which is better than nothing but not super useful.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Flake » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:21 am

The issue with Framer mechanically is that it depends on the existence of a Sheriff/s and/or Investigator/s to have utility. The more likely it is for a Sheriff/Investigator to hit a framed target, the more utility the Framer has; it logically follows that the more Sheriff/s and/or Investigator/s appear in a game, the more utility Framer has in said game. This means that the Framer's utility has a huge dependency on the existence of Sheriff/s and/or Investigator/s, to the point where their lack of existence in a game completely nullifies the Framer's utility.

This inherent issue with Framer could not easily be seen before, because even with a large amount of Sheriff/s and/or Investigator/s in a game, a Sheriff/Investigator visiting a framed target was relatively rare, and so the ability was largely situational; this is why the Framer (was) very weak. Notice how before I say "the more likely it is for a Sheriff/Investigator to hit a framed target, the more utility the Framer has"; this Framer buff does exactly this. It amplifies the Framer's utility to a HUGE extent, to the point where both Sheriff and Investigator are hard countered. With this, the inherent issues of Framer can now easily be seen; have no Sheriffs or Investigators in a game, Framer has literally zero utility. Have a large or even decent amount of Sheriff/s and/or Investigator/s in a game, the Framer's utility skyrockets to be borderline broken, or at the very least, VERY powerful. Note that all of this utility is entirely dependent on the existence of Sheriffs and Investigators; something completely outside of the control of the Framer player. In other words, uncontrollable swing. Framer has always had this uncontrollable swing, but with this buff, it is simply amplified to the nth degree.

I might get shit for this, but I'm going to be blunt. You, as in the ToS dev team, need to not blindly cater to the common complaints that people have at face value. It looks as though you've just looked at "buff framer!" and implemented the first buff you could think of with no second thought about the impact it would have in any respect other than how strong the role is. I would also suggest that you start looking into the thoughts of people who have already analysed many of these potential ideas, including this one, and have a good understanding and realisation of the impact they would have on the balance of the game as a whole. My betting is that you have not realised or seen the argument I gave above; and my betting is that, if you did see it, you would never even think about implementing this buff. And if you would seriously contemplate implementing this buff after the realisation of my above argument, that would be EXTREMELY telling.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:31 am

Darn good post Flake, 100% agree.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Achilles » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:42 pm

This is why I hate doing balance changes. Everytime it's an immediate hatred of any change, polls and rage wanting it reverted and I end up wasting a bunch of my time. You realize that this Framer change only puts it on par with dousing and hexing that are both permanent?

Post your suggested Framer changes that you think are better than this and I will read over and consider them.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Overstew » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:53 pm

I think the Framer should be able to visit without notifying the Spy. That would be a much more suitable fix imo. Spy needs a Nerf, whether it's direct or indirectly by changing another role. Sheriff and invest are in a good spot right now and I think a Framer that ignored spy visits would be a lot more fair for Town of Salem.

That said, I really appreciate the devs acknowledging that mafia roles need a buff.
Last edited by Overstew on Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:53 pm

I'm sorry but I've literally been doing just that for literal years.

This buff idea in particular is recieving flak because it amplifies the issues we already have with Framer instead of fixing them.

How that has gone over your head in this case, frankly, I don't know.

Now, not everything you do is worthy of criticism. Hell, the very last patch and its change to a $5.00 paywall might be my favorite update in a while. It's just that this one buff idea is so obviously a knee-jerk reaction that we collectively can't see why it's even being considered.

Also keep in mind that you being here, giving us thoughts on balance changes before they go live, and reacting to the feedback you're getting, is perfect. I for one am happy that this is happening, because this is literally exactly what I love to see a dev team do. Be transparent, update the community, and keep an ear to the ground. Don't listen to them all of the time, but don't block them out either - so all in all, I would like to commend you, despite my harshness towards this particular buff.

Either way, the first step is to make Framer fool all Town Investigative roles. Making the framed target appear to visit the person the Mafioso/Godfather visits when watched by a Tracker or Lookout is a good first step. Spy still needs changes, but for now I'd make it so that the Framer's visit isn't shown to the Spy, but the person the Framer has framed has their visit shown. I'd trust people like Flake if they disagree on this one, though.

Edit: lol bringing in Hexing and Framing those permanent frames were already considered problematic
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby DragonClaw66 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:25 pm

Achilles wrote:This is why I hate doing balance changes. Everytime it's an immediate hatred of any change, polls and rage wanting it reverted and I end up wasting a bunch of my time. You realize that this Framer change only puts it on par with dousing and hexing that are both permanent?

Post your suggested Framer changes that you think are better than this and I will read over and consider them.

Framer Overhaul
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby TurdPile » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:28 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Edit: lol bringing in Hexing and Framing those permanent frames were already considered problematic


IMO, the perma-frame for hex master makes sense, because its an effect that sticks with you until the hex triggers, likewise with dousing, stays until it procs. Framing seems to be on a different level because it doesn't really "trigger", it persists. Perhaps make it so its permanent UNTIL an investigative checks said person, in which case it then clears the frame? This would force Framer to either re-frame said person, or let the TI re-check said person to prove/disprove a frame. This would also provide different avenues of thought (ie, should a lookout be on the person being re-checked, or is it a waste of time, etc etc). Spitballing here... no clue how that would play out in the real world.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Achilles » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:29 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Also keep in mind that you being here, giving us thoughts on balance changes before they go live, and reacting to the feedback you're getting, is perfect. I for one am happy that this is happening, because this is literally exactly what I love to see a dev team do. Be transparent, update the community, and keep an ear to the ground. Don't listen to them all of the time, but don't block them out either - so all in all, I would like to commend you, despite my harshness towards this particular buff.


Thank you. I’m trying my best to be a better dev.

I’m going to be honest, doing balance changes are like pulling teeth. There’s always a subset of the community that doesn’t like any proposed change. It can be very difficult to find the right path in an ocean of subjective opinions.

I ask the community to keep in mind that balance changes are meant to make the community happier. That’s the only reason we do them and we’re on your side. We all have the same goal. If you don’t like a proposed change that’s fine but keep your criticism posts constructive. If the only thing posted is an insult with no real feedback that isn’t helping anything.

Please post concise Framer changes and discussion in this thread. I’m not going to dig through old posts so please post links in here.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:36 pm

Hey, I completely understand that you're gonna get people pissed at you no matter what you do. I also know that I myself am gonna be one of those pains. But I'm okay with being a pain if it means a better game, and I respect you highly for pushing through the shitstorm to try and make the game better and improve yourself. So, although I may tear your balance changes to shreds from time to time, just know that at the end of the day I respect you and what you've done with your game. :)

but yeah definitely widen Framer's usefulness as opposed to deepining its niche

My suggestion above does that

The Framer Overhaul above does too

Both help make Framer more useful more often

And that's really the issue
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Achilles » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:38 pm

DragonClaw66 wrote:Framer Overhaul


Having Framer swap the information investigator sees instead of just seeing the framer feedback is interesting. Doing a double selection night menu is problematic. I’m trying to do changes that don’t distract Client guys too much while they work on Unity. If this ends up being the chosen change it will be a while before this comes out.

Not a fan of removing existing roles like Disguiser.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:44 pm

TurdPile wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Edit: lol bringing in Hexing and Framing those permanent frames were already considered problematic


IMO, the perma-frame for hex master makes sense, because its an effect that sticks with you until the hex triggers, likewise with dousing, stays until it procs. Framing seems to be on a different level because it doesn't really "trigger", it persists. Perhaps make it so its permanent UNTIL an investigative checks said person, in which case it then clears the frame? This would force Framer to either re-frame said person, or let the TI re-check said person to prove/disprove a frame. This would also provide different avenues of thought (ie, should a lookout be on the person being re-checked, or is it a waste of time, etc etc). Spitballing here... no clue how that would play out in the real world.

Probably not as well as you'd think - this doesn't entirely harcounter Sheriff/Investigator like perma-frames, but it cuts their investigation power in half in the late game without doing anything to address Tracker/Lookout/Spy not giving a damn (and Spy directly benefitting from a Framer).

Definitely shore up those aspects before increasing its effect on the roles it already counters.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby Overstew » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:07 pm

Framer change suggestions,

Framer can visit one player each night. The framer's target will show up as Framer, Jester, or Vampire to an investigator. And the target will show up as mafia to the Sheriff. Framers visits no longer are shown by Spy, but rather the framed targets visits are. For example, if an Escort is framed and the escort visited the Jailor, the Spy would see that mafia visited the Jailor, not the escort. Frames only last for that night and will need to be reapplied nightly.

Personally I think this will still enable the framer to frame certain targets without the Spies knowledge and it'll also be a direct Nerf to Spy while still maintaining the framers main purpose, to cause confusion.
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Re: Dev Update 11/20/2018

Postby DragonClaw66 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:11 pm

Achilles wrote:
DragonClaw66 wrote:Framer Overhaul


Having Framer swap the information investigator sees instead of just seeing the framer feedback is interesting. Doing a double selection night menu is problematic. I’m trying to do changes that don’t distract Client guys too much while they work on Unity. If this ends up being the chosen change it will be a while before this comes out.

Not a fan of removing existing roles like Disguiser.

The disguising part of this rework was only a thought, I dislike it now. I don’t think that changing the appearance of a role upon dearh should happen (the Disguiser needs to be changed again).
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