State of Ranked

[LRyuzakiL]

I never said that whether you lost at the beginning or the middle should make a difference. Ideally, the best "bonus rank" system would be some sort of ratio, such as a 70+% winrate. As long as you maintain that ratio, you get bonus points each time you win. I don't think that having bonus stars just for a win streak is perfect, but its better than no rank bonus at all. If you are winning 80%+ of games, you should be getting bonus ranks to more quickly move to your appropriate rank, in some games.

One of the key benefits of ELO is that it is not explicitly influenced by winrate on its own, but by the outcomes of games depending on the caliber of the opponents you face.

If the top ELO ranked ToS player had 100 games with 14 recent entrants to ranked and was on the winning side 90% of the time, that's not unexpected. His ELO gain would be minimal. If the top ELO ranked player had 100 games with the rest of the top 15 and won 90% of them, then his ELO gain would be more substantial, as he's repeatedly beating players at the same ballpark level of skill.

This actually happens anyway after the reset. The top player is effectively given an artificially low ELO and his poorer opponents and artificially high one, so you would expect to the top player progress more rapidly through the effects of the ELO algorithm, especially if he continues to win as he's matched with increasingly better opponents.

High level players have explained to you literally dozens of times why this does not work. It goes in one ear and out the other, because apparently none of the devs actually play much. I'm not gonna bother repeating something thats been explained to you 50+ times. Go search these forums and other forums if you wanna know why. The devs, and their sheep, always say "if you beat people better than you, you deserve more ELO and if you lose to worse people, you should take a bigger hit." It doesn't work out how you intend, and when experienced players try to tell you that, it goes in one ear and out the other. Hence multiple people calling the devs blind and deaf.

[Frivolous]

Last 2 weeks - went from 3040 elo to 2710. ER MA GURD, NOT COOLIO.

[Ameen]

Just because this is ranked and I am a regular player, I feel like I have to say something even though I barely post. ever.

Firstly, my thoughts on the Elo reset are neutral. Elo was broken at the start, I've seen in an earlier post on this thread how it has been reworked and while I generally don't like it, it surely is difficult to come up with an agreeable solution for an Elo calculation which works with randomized team/solo play. I've played for 2 years and have 2.3k Elo which I don't really care much about, all I care about is having enjoyable competitive games which is the reason I play ranked. I find no enjoyment in a town winning a game where gf and mafioso suicides d1 which brings me to my next point which was not discussed in earlier posts: HOW WILL LEAVERS AFFECT ELO CALCULATIONS?

On my next agenda, about vfr...I don't wholly support vfr but it shouldn't be removed or banned simply due to the current game mechanics. Imagine a ranked game with 4 spies and jailor dies n1, no retri available, and no vfr because it is banned; good heavens! Which brings me to my next point: BRING BACK SPY WHISPERS - seriously, some people have a hard time getting the achievement of seeing a private message. It's also stupid how BMG reworked the spy but not the blackmailer with no given notifications or PTR testing

The whole low Elo players gaining more and high Elo players losing more when paired is something that should be looked at more thoroughly. Please don't repost me links about how Elo works and about the whole grinding/losing Elo dilemma. I'm 10 years a competitive chess player and a math tutor, chances are I know better of the calculations than you

I have other suggestions if BMG is willing to listen to voices of ranked players. The voices of majority are likely the mass who came in from jacksepticeye/Markiplier/Pewdiepie ToS videos
RANT OVER

[wozearly]

[quote="LRyuzakiL"[/quote]

High level players have explained to you literally dozens of times why this does not work. It goes in one ear and out the other, because apparently none of the devs actually play much. I'm not gonna bother repeating something thats been explained to you 50+ times. Go search these forums and other forums if you wanna know why. The devs, and their sheep, always say "if you beat people better than you, you deserve more ELO and if you lose to worse people, you should take a bigger hit." It doesn't work out how you intend, and when experienced players try to tell you that, it goes in one ear and out the other. Hence multiple people calling the devs blind and deaf.[/quote]

My point was that's what ELO, as a system, is intended to do - and it is a recognised advantage as it avoids the Rank score being grindable through long-term play, rather than indicating actual skill.

Does it actually do that in ToS? Yes, but only to an extent. I'm not blind to the gripes that you and other high level players have about the side effects of the ELO system. Particularly if you're regularly matched with opponents far below your ELO, in a team-based game where winning can be influenced by luck and random factors, which is what we know happens to the highest level players in ToS.

On the other hand, we had high level players openly arguing for the broken algorithm to remain broken, in order that it would continue favouring their relative and/or absolute ELO ranking. Not you personally, perhaps, but that was clearly never a viable suggestion.

ELO isn't a perfect solution for ToS...but there aren't a lot of 'perfect' solutions for this type of gameplay sitting waiting on the shelf. Combining it with a reset will at least make people feel less bad about the relative ELO maximum dropping, because I agree the interim "Play games and get +1/-15" while the game tries to correct you being beyond the intended limits is, at its very best, utterly demotivating.

[wozearly]

On my next agenda, about vfr...I don't wholly support vfr but it shouldn't be removed or banned simply due to the current game mechanics. Imagine a ranked game with 4 spies and jailor dies n1, no retri available, and no vfr because it is banned; good heavens!

Banning VFR would be...daft. It wouldn't really be enforceable either. However, there's a legitimate frustration with it; it should be a higher risk tactic for Town than it currently is, given the benefit it tends to confer in most Town games. Replacing one of the fixed Town roles with another Random Town would go a long way to helping evils blur the claimspace - although I'm open to any ideas that would help to nudge down Town dominance.

...I have other suggestions if BMG is willing to listen to voices of ranked players. The voices of majority are likely the mass who came in from jacksepticeye/Markiplier/Pewdiepie ToS videos
RANT OVER

Technically, that includes me. I suppose I'd better delete my posts and withdraw my views, now I've been advised that everything I think should be considered invalid...

[Ameen]

Replacing one of the fixed Town roles with another Random Town would go a long way to helping evils blur the claimspace - although I'm open to any ideas that would help to nudge down Town dominance.

1. Replace Jailor with TK - this would definitely shift the balance but may be a bit too drastic
2. Replace NB with Any - as discussed in earlier posts, a confirmed NB on the role list doesn't really require skill especially if someone is just yelling d1 "SURV" or "AMNE"
3. Replace one TS with RT - decreases the likelihood of mayor + ret being in the same game
4. Replace mafioso with RM - a nice attempt for creating a bit more variety, but it would suck if gf is jailed n1 by chance
5. Ban certain roles from ranked - retri should be banned if not nerfed
6. maybe points 1 and 4 together?? This may work but needs to be tested first

Technically, that includes me. I suppose I'd better delete my posts and withdraw my views, now I've been advised that everything I think should be considered invalid...

The way those youtubers play the game, they don't follow the rules (Skyping, sharing info out of the game, gamethrowing etc)...I'm assuming you're one of the few who already knew this. The ones I were referring to are the trolls usually found in non-ranked gameplays imitating the 'tubers because they still think this is the right way to play, and they are still plenty. Again, you probably already knew this

[wozearly]

1. Replace Jailor with TK - this would definitely shift the balance but may be a bit too drastic
2. Replace NB with Any - as discussed in earlier posts, a confirmed NB on the role list doesn't really require skill especially if someone is just yelling d1 "SURV" or "AMNE"
3. Replace one TS with RT - decreases the likelihood of mayor + ret being in the same game
4. Replace mafioso with RM - a nice attempt for creating a bit more variety, but it would suck if gf is jailed n1 by chance
5. Ban certain roles from ranked - retri should be banned if not nerfed
6. maybe points 1 and 4 together?? This may work but needs to be tested first

1. I quite like the idea that Jailor has a 2/3(ish) chance of appearing. That would definitely give the evils some additional tricks in the bag, and would be very interesting to test...
2. Confirmed NB isn't necessarily a problem - it gives evils a reasonable temporary claimspace if they're found to have night immunity, although not a safe one. More importantly, the other neutral roles are a huge crutch for the NKs. Shifting guaranteed neutrals to Any would make it even harder for them.
3. If I was in BMG's shoes, this is what I'd have done.
4. I think this would shaft the mafia - having twin killing roles goes a long way towards making it harder for the Jailor and Escort to confirm who the killing roles are.
5. Retri is an absolute sod for evils, agreed. My temptation would be to tweak it so that they could only resurrect if they're still alive at the end of the night.

The way those youtubers play the game, they don't follow the rules (Skyping, sharing info out of the game, gamethrowing etc)...I'm assuming you're one of the few who already knew this. The ones I were referring to are the trolls usually found in non-ranked gameplays imitating the 'tubers because they still think this is the right way to play, and they are still plenty. Again, you probably already knew this

Absolutely - the games they played were truly, legendarily awful. However, it did show a glimmer of what ToS could be like if played properly - and that brought people over too.

I'm just saying that it's a little premature to take everyone who came across ToS from that route, or even the majority of them, and tar them with the same brush as the mouthbreathers who came in to screw around and see if that was fun for them.

[Flamingkamikaze]

1. Replace Jailor with TK - this would definitely shift the balance but may be a bit too drastic
2. Replace NB with Any - as discussed in earlier posts, a confirmed NB on the role list doesn't really require skill especially if someone is just yelling d1 "SURV" or "AMNE"
3. Replace one TS with RT - decreases the likelihood of mayor + ret being in the same game
4. Replace mafioso with RM - a nice attempt for creating a bit more variety, but it would suck if gf is jailed n1 by chance
5. Ban certain roles from ranked - retri should be banned if not nerfed
6. maybe points 1 and 4 together?? This may work but needs to be tested first

1. I quite like the idea that Jailor has a 2/3(ish) chance of appearing. That would definitely give the evils some additional tricks in the bag, and would be very interesting to test...
2. Confirmed NB isn't necessarily a problem - it gives evils a reasonable temporary claimspace if they're found to have night immunity, although not a safe one. More importantly, the other neutral roles are a huge crutch for the NKs. Shifting guaranteed neutrals to Any would make it even harder for them.
3. If I was in BMG's shoes, this is what I'd have done.
4. I think this would shaft the mafia - having twin killing roles goes a long way towards making it harder for the Jailor and Escort to confirm who the killing roles are.
5. Retri is an absolute sod for evils, agreed. My temptation would be to tweak it so that they could only resurrect if they're still alive at the end of the night.

The issue with replacing jailor with tk is that the difference between having a jailor and not having a jailor is huge. Because 1. the jailor is so strong, it's best to just include it in rolelists as a default.
2. I have a different take on this but I'll be talking about that later
3. Definitely, that'd be the first changed I'd make the rolelist we have now.
4. I don't think there should be any argument about this. Before, when there was only a gf confirmed, whenever the godfather got roleblocked they would stay that way for the rest of the game, essentially making it an instant loss for the mafia.
5. That seems like a pretty good solution for a nerf since it at least reduces the effectiveness of claiming retri the day before you revive someone.

[Flamingkamikaze]

Pardon my doublepost, but this is a longer post and I feel it would be better to make it seperate from the one above.

Orangeandblack has commented that a 9v4v2 rolelist places town in LyLo on day 2 under not uncommon circumstances. That made me start thinking that 10v4v1 would actually be the most balanced. I understand this is a radical departure from the current rolelist but I would like to hear thoughts on it.

This is essentially what that kind of rolelist would look like.

Spoiler: Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Support
Town Killing
Town Protective
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia Support
Random Mafia
Serial Killer
My reason for including serial killer instead of neutral killing is that it is the most consistent of the neutral killing roles. While I would be willing to compromise on this issue, I believe that having the same neutral killing in every game is important because it allows each game to have a similar pace.

[Jakerams]

Umm do the role list actually need to be changed? Honestly I win the majority of my games so I don't see any major problems almost every game is winnable unless you get destroyed n1-2 or you have a team full of people lacking common sense.

Though I do think NKs need a slight buff maybe allow them to win together but they don't know who each other are. And Arso/WW can still kill the other NK. also replacing NB with another an any neutral option would be useful.

So it would be

Jailor
TI
TI
TS
TS
TK
TP
RT
GF
Mafioso
RM
NK
NE
Any Neutral

[Lukeizanamie]

Umm do the role list actually need to be changed? Honestly I win the majority of my games so I don't see any major problems almost every game is winnable unless you get destroyed n1-2 or you have a team full of people lacking common sense.

Though I do think NKs need a slight buff maybe allow them to win together but they don't know who each other are. And Arso/WW can still kill the other NK. also replacing NB with another an any neutral option would be useful.

So it would be

Jailor
TI
TI
TS
TS
TK
TP
RT
GF
Mafioso
RM
NK
NE
Any Neutral

I suggest this Instand
Jailor
TI
TS
TK
TP
RT
RT
RT
GF
Mafioso
RM
NK
NE
NB
Any

[WittyRecluse]

Umm do the role list actually need to be changed? Honestly I win the majority of my games so I don't see any major problems almost every game is winnable unless you get destroyed n1-2 or you have a team full of people lacking common sense.

Though I do think NKs need a slight buff maybe allow them to win together but they don't know who each other are. And Arso/WW can still kill the other NK. also replacing NB with another an any neutral option would be useful.

So it would be

Jailor
TI
TI
TS
TS
TK
TP
RT
GF
Mafioso
RM
NK
NE
Any Neutral

I suggest this Instand
Jailor
TI
TS
TK
TP
RT
RT
RT
GF
Mafioso
RM
NK
NE
NB
Any

There should be two TI slots for sure, as TI is one of the most common scum claims, so making sure there's people that scum can directly cc is good. One TS -> RT is really one of the only changes that the list needs.

[chitownmvp01]

I'm looking forward to Season 1! Good luck everyone!

[Lyphian]

when is this off season BS over??? fcking garbage players in ranked every match

[Jerme]

when is this off season BS over??? fcking garbage players in ranked every match

Please mind your language.
The off season is over when the devs found a rolelist with which they are happy with, and this might take a while.

[BustedBetty]

I know I am a little late to this because I quit when I first heard the ranked changes. You don't know how long I waited for a reset when I was in elo hell. Now that I am higher you decide to do an elo reset . I am glad you guys are considering a better role list. (more claim space ) Even thought the old system wasn't perfect it still worked for me to escape elo hell. People who wanted to climb had the ability to climb. People who were just utter trash at the game deserved to be low elo.

Looking forward to Season 1!

[Sirenfal]

Am i the only one seeing this as an overwatch style competitive with the seasons? I quite like this tho.

[chitownmvp01]

when is this off season BS over??? fcking garbage players in ranked every match

Dude your elo is literally 4.
How can you complain about "garbage players", when it is only your fault you are there in the first place (LEAVING MATCHES WHEN DEAD = GUARENTEED LOSS OF ELO)

His ELO is actually 4?

no offense

[WittyRecluse]

Please end Ranked offseason. I just got lynched as revealed mayor because the town said "it's offseason, doesn't matter". This shit is happening every game. Do anything, just unfreeze Elo or remove Ranked until you create the new season.

[Jerme]

Please end Ranked offseason. I just got lynched as revealed mayor because the town said "it's offseason, doesn't matter". This shit is happening every game. Do anything, just unfreeze Elo or remove Ranked until you create the new season.

Or we need an alert that lets people know about the rules applying to every gamemode...

[Sirenfal]

Please end Ranked offseason. I just got lynched as revealed mayor because the town said "it's offseason, doesn't matter". This shit is happening every game. Do anything, just unfreeze Elo or remove Ranked until you create the new season.

Or we need an alert that lets people know about the rules applying to every gamemode...

Or we need to report them and be involved in the trial system so there is subsequent numbers of jurors to judge the reports. Then they learn their lesson and the game is cleaner, well sort off, there are a lot of trolls y'know? Rather than moaning, get acquainted to it and help, I did, it is not that hard to get involved.

[WittyRecluse]

Please end Ranked offseason. I just got lynched as revealed mayor because the town said "it's offseason, doesn't matter". This shit is happening every game. Do anything, just unfreeze Elo or remove Ranked until you create the new season.

Or we need an alert that lets people know about the rules applying to every gamemode...

Well the problem is that aside from blatant gamethrowing like that, there's people playing exceptionally poorly all the time.

Examples:

Investigator found someone as framer/jester/vampire (with bmer in game and NE dead), meaning that any was evil. It was 4 town vs 3 non-town (bmer + surv + either framer or jester), yet town decided to lynch the framer/jester/vampire (which, if jester, would up the KPN to 2 that night, causing town to lose majority), rather than getting a safe win by lynching the survivor or the bmer to stay ahead in votes. Obviously it was jester, and obviously we lost majority because of them.

Other things like that are happening all the time. GF who claims surv d2, everyone leaving d1 as NK, etc. People aren't even trying to play seriously or go for the win, but they're doing it in such a borderline way that they can't technically be accused of gamethrowing.

[Leonboss777]

There are a lot of people who didn't deserve to be in ELO hell (me included). I don't consider myself an exceptional player, but i am good enough to get some more ELO. Lately i've seen more gamethrowers than usually (I'll mention some in case you recognize them; Syanna, Karino, wmwmwmwmwm, etc) and i'm sure once season comes back i'll be back to get out of ELO hell, i'm at like 900 something right now. I hope the system really changes and we all get in the place we deserve to be in.

[BurtGummer]

There are a lot of people who didn't deserve to be in ELO hell (me included). I don't consider myself an exceptional player, but i am good enough to get some more ELO. Lately i've seen more gamethrowers than usually (I'll mention some in case you recognize them; Syanna, Karino, wmwmwmwmwm, etc) and i'm sure once season comes back i'll be back to get out of ELO hell, i'm at like 900 something right now. I hope the system really changes and we all get in the place we deserve to be in.

How am I a gamethrower?

[Leonboss777]

There are a lot of people who didn't deserve to be in ELO hell (me included). I don't consider myself an exceptional player, but i am good enough to get some more ELO. Lately i've seen more gamethrowers than usually (I'll mention some in case you recognize them; Syanna, Karino, wmwmwmwmwm, etc) and i'm sure once season comes back i'll be back to get out of ELO hell, i'm at like 900 something right now. I hope the system really changes and we all get in the place we deserve to be in.

How am I a gamethrower?

Lol, sorry i don't know which of these are you but in my opinion you were gamethrowing, sorry ): who are you tho? inb4 Syanna