Patch 2.0 Original Town of Salem Changes

[shapesifter13]

EDIT:
Since the Amnesiac change went live today, can anybody clarify what happens when two Amnesiacs try to remember the same unique role on the same night? Which one gets priority?
Since only one of each unique can be alive at a time, what happens in a situation as follows:

N1: Mayor dies, N2: Amnesiac remembers Mayor, N3: Retributionist revives Mayor?

Don't worry about the nights just for an example given that I imagine if they were to be revived and an Amnesiac tried to remember on the same night it would just disallow the Amnesiac... and this has the opportunity of giving many lives to any important town roles which no other faction has, since Amnesiac can remember Retributionist again and again to revive Mayor, Jailor, or other useful roles?
Do Amnesiacs get the revive ability even after the inital Retributionist has revived someone? Is there a limit to how many Amnesiacs can remember each unique role per game?

So many questions...

Amne question: Essentially its random.

Ret question: Ret wouldn't be allowed. If they both try on the same night Ret takes priority.

Amne question 2: They can only remember unique evil roles, not Town.

[BruceyBoyo]

Ret question: Ret wouldn't be allowed. If they both try on the same night Ret takes priority.

What evil role would the Ret be resurrecting for this to actually come up?

[Belshy]

Amne question: Essentially its random.

Ret question: Ret wouldn't be allowed. If they both try on the same night Ret takes priority.

Amne question 2: They can only remember unique evil roles, not Town.

Okay, is the only evil roles new? I saw a few days ago on the PTR someone remember mayor so I seem to have missed the evils part.

[glorious]

We are looking into a fix to Elo that was causing some people to get 0 Elo for wins.

Is that the only ELO thing you're looking into? Because honestly, I don't understand why anyone over 2.6k would want to play ranked if you're just going to give us the maximum elo loss? Shouldn't you be encouraging your veteran players to play more?

[FrankLeeAwful]

We are looking into a fix to Elo that was causing some people to get 0 Elo for wins.

Is that the only ELO thing you're looking into? Because honestly, I don't understand why anyone over 2.6k would want to play ranked if you're just going to give us the maximum elo loss? Shouldn't you be encouraging your veteran players to play more?

It's affecting those under 2600, too, love.

[glorious]

We are looking into a fix to Elo that was causing some people to get 0 Elo for wins.

Is that the only ELO thing you're looking into? Because honestly, I don't understand why anyone over 2.6k would want to play ranked if you're just going to give us the maximum elo loss? Shouldn't you be encouraging your veteran players to play more?

It's affecting those under 2600, too, love.

I didn't mean it offensively tbh. I don't know what they consider "high elo" to the extent where they are giving the highest elo loss.

[BiooHazard]

Here's a screenshot of one fo the 2 games I played after the patch:

http://imgur.com/a/DOI8H


+0 for a jester win
And it isn't a visual bug or something, I really gained nothing.
What's the point in even playing like this anymore if I only can lose ELO.

[orangeandblack5]

Interesting stuff, can't wait to see where it ends up.

Now I'm going to bed - been one hell of a week on my end.

Any chance we can get a summary of all of the changes to the Coven roles soon? Thanks!

[InflatedChimp]

Not a big fan of the Jester and Medium changes, though I know that the latter was a bug (and thought the Jester thing was too), I've always felt that they added another level to the game.

Jester targets one of three people, trans can potentially save one of those three but at the cost of another life.

Dead Medium showing up to visit I felt kind of fit the lore (ghost visiting) and also it was one of the only ways to confirm that a Medium did in fact seance you.

And the Death Note thing.... I can see both sides too this but Jailor very rarely uses DN to confirm himself, more often to tell town to hang someone else or get a role from. Veteran is now pretty much impossible to confirm if they kill an evil, unless evil is stupid and leaves a will saying who they visited that night, they are now reliant upon killing town members to get confirmed, which seems ass-backwards to me. Vigilante is now straight up impossible to confirm without shooting an opposing claim, which as we all know is a stupid tactic.

The rest of it I'm down with, especially the "Jailing will now make all targeting fail against the jailed target." bit. Always felt that it should be that way.

[murat1996]

Not a big fan of the Jester and Medium changes, though I know that the latter was a bug (and thought the Jester thing was too), I've always felt that they added another level to the game.

Jester targets one of three people, trans can potentially save one of those three but at the cost of another life.

Dead Medium showing up to visit I felt kind of fit the lore (ghost visiting) and also it was one of the only ways to confirm that a Medium did in fact seance you.

And the Death Note thing.... I can see both sides too this but Jailor very rarely uses DN to confirm himself, more often to tell town to hang someone else or get a role from. Veteran is now pretty much impossible to confirm if they kill an evil, unless evil is stupid and leaves a will saying who they visited that night, they are now reliant upon killing town members to get confirmed, which seems ass-backwards to me. Vigilante is now straight up impossible to confirm without shooting an opposing claim, which as we all know is a stupid tactic.

The rest of it I'm down with, especially the "Jailing will now make all targeting fail against the jailed target." bit. Always felt that it should be that way.

When it comes to Jester's haunt, u technically shouldn't be able to transfer the guilt to someone else, when they chose a specific target, but that's whatever.

[shapesifter13]

@Orange We don't have a list of changes as a lot were made, but we updated the Announcement post to have all the current abilities.

[murat1996]

@Orange We don't have a list of changes as a lot were made, but we updated the Announcement post to have all the current abilities.

Well, I suppose its better than nothing

At least u guys try your best, I'll give u that

[shapesifter13]

Hopefully we can be better about keeping PTR patch notes. I would love to have something that is like hey I see this is your first time logging in this patch, here are the patch notes. Even if most people click the x button some people will learn something, and players that care would have easier access to that knowledge.

[tazar]

You actually broke the ELO system. You listen to a bunch of 0 elo players complaining that the system was broken when they actually leave every game when they die which makes up for the majority of their elo loss.
I am at 4085 elo meaning I almost always lose and gain the max ammount as it is right now which is +1 for town/maf win and -14/-7 for loss respectively.
What this means is I need 94% town win rate and 86% maf win rate just to stay at the elo I am at right now which is absolutely impossible. This could be said for anyone above 2k to a lesser extent.
Even if you reset the ELO the problem will stay cause you will force the players to queue at certain times just so they can play with people on their elo level (there is a dead zone of like 16 hrs a day where not enough players queue and you are put in the same lobby with 1200 players or even less) and playing at any other times means playing with 1200 elo players which is a certain elo loss as per the new system.
ELO was fine as it was. Ranked doesnt have a big enough playerbase for you to make this change and this 'fix' you just implemented is making me and many others not wanna play.
I am done with this game.

[Gracee]

I was happy when I saw you had polls about rolechanges, taking into account how the community wanted the game to work. But now you're back on track with just running us over. Why are the top elo ranked players so unimportant to you? Do you not realize how many hours and games it takes to get above 2k? It feels like all changes you make are for the sub 1200 elo players, and the higher elo players just have to live with the consequenses. In all other games, the top clique of the ranked system is cherished for their knowledge and insight in how the game is played. And here you're just shutting the door hoping that we wont leave no matter how bad your changes are.

[JesterAF]

Hello, I don't usually use the forums, but this elo change has actually upset me quite a tad.

Do you not realize how many hours and games it takes to get above 2k?

100% agreed w/ Grace here. That statement pretty much represents the entire high elo community right now.
I don't see why you fail to appreciate the only certain loyal group of people in your community that have actually stuck with you since the start. We both know that this elo change is completely biased against that certain group.


The elo system in the past was a little off track, yeah. But it made little sense. This one makes NO SENSE AT ALL. +0 for a jester win? 0+ for a town win? -6 for a mafia loss? If this system makes sense to you, I, along with many other players, believe that you're in the complete wrong here, buddy.

Anyway, yeah, bottomline-- if people like me, who rarely ever post on the forums, are complaining then I think you guys have a problem. And I think you kinda need to fix it.


- welps

[DBrock01]

The theory behind the elo changes makes sense. Before, the problem was that low elo people would randomly lose large amounts when they lost against high elo people. This is obviously backwards, a low elo person shouldn't be punished for losing to a better player. High elo players should gain less and lose more against low elo players.

The problem is that elo is weighted way too heavily in the gain/loss calculations. The calculations are basically assuming that a 3k+ player will almost never lose against a 1200 player, when obviously luck plays a large factor in who wins.

The calculations need to be adjusted so that elo disparity isn't factored as heavily. High elo players will still probably see a reduction in elo, but it wont be on the order of +1/-14 for mafia.

[scarletgladiator]

I´ll probably get ignored like pretty much half the people here, but I´ll throw my two cents:

The elo system was unbalanced before but this fix is far from being fair, a high elo player (Anyone above 2k) can get stuck with a bad team or die night 1 and losing -14 is too harsh of a punishment for that. I get it that the average player isn´t above 2k but that´s where most of your veteran and active players are, this will end up being counterproductive in the long run for that section of the playerbase

[Moltac]

But wouldnt it make sense to change the Elo System in a way that gives everyone an individual elo gain/loss? If the community is so small that 3k+ players are matched against Newbies they shouldnt take the full amount of elo loss whereas an even or better player should lose a considerable amount. I have never been a fan of the fact that the faction gains and wins the same amount of elo because its literally never fair that way.

[Hollr]

Dear Developers,

I wish to express my sincere discontent with the changes announced for patch 2.0. I believe my collegues have adequatly explained some of the flaws these changes consist.

Additionally I would like to respectfully point out that past interventions to gamebalance have also been characterized by essential flaws suggesting a fundamentally flawed understanding of the game by the balancing team. Consequently I would like the to suggest that developers integrate experienced ToS players into their balancing progress.

Truthfully, the developers have succeded in converting a cardgame into an online game, however this does not qualify the developers as balancers which appears to be the current state.

Also I lost -12 elo as surv so may I suggest you collectivly engage in intercourse with yourselves.

[Belshy]

Why are coven invest results are in base/classic game? It just makes people who keep "perfect" will to have 0 space in their wills. Also unnecessary long night results.

I can agree with this. It's annoying in Coven but obviously necessary given the amount of roles that are out there now, but they don't need to be in normal ToS too... then again they could always leave out the roles they KNOW aren't going to be in the game. Still, having to open chat just to see night results seems moot to even have them appear in the little box.

[kurtisnagey]

This game is a unwinnable game for experienced players since the update. You can now win 5 straight games and get +1 +0 +0 +1 +1 and lose one game and get -12. No point in playing this broken game when you can only move down.

[Galaktik]

Had to come back to make a post about BMG shitting the bed with the elo changes. The reason why other games such as League and Overwatch use the elo system you are using now are because their playerbases are much, much larger, they have a competent matchmaking system, and you only play with people in your specific elo range. You don't have Challengers in League playing with bronzes or silvers. Secondly, these games are almost entirely skill based, and it's much easier to carry as the only high elo person on your team assuming your team doesn't throw hard. In ToS, it is significantly more luck based, and there is only so much you can do, I can carry a lot of games sure, but as medium in a town of 8-9 people, there is only so much I can do, and people aren't going to like losing -14, with the possibility to get a measly +1 for winning.

In ToS, it is impossible to get a high elo lobby without specifically planning it and queueing together (which rarely happens anymore, as most of the top players, myself included, have quit the game), so now this system hard punishes you for solo q'ing as the only way is DOWN, and fast. +1 / -12 for surv games, +1 / -7 for NE games, +1 / -14 for town games, +1 / -7 for mafia games. Now you are forced to ONLY queue with other high elo players or are you going to being bleeding elo at a rapid pace in the long run, drawing your teammates down with you, while giving freelo to all your opponents (who need only like a 10% winrate to gain from your game).

The proper way to fix elo is to go back to the old system, fix the elo floors for mafia, NE, and NK beyond +1 (+4 is fine), and then to add a simple individual multiplier for how far or close you are from a "mean elo" (like 1600 or 2k, where you want the average to be, doesn't necessarily have to be starting elo), that players gain a simple multiplier for gains/losses. For example, if the "mean elo" is to be 2k, the team earns the same payout (say in this case, a mean elo 2k player earns +5, -8), while someone 800 elo above the mean (2.8k elo player) would get a .75x multiplier (the loss would be -11, and this gain would be +4), alternatively a player at 800 below the mean (1200 elo) would get a 1.25x multiplier for +6, -6 for the same game. This is probably the best way to deal with the small community that has such drastic elo differences, as well as the more random nature of ToS (where a loss can not directly be attributed to skill like in something like chess).

Anyways the current system is shit, and it is actually truly mind-boggling how one company can be so absolutely clueless to how their game plays at a higher level (not really surprising considering not one mod or dev is above 1.3k elo). More high elo players are going to keep leaving and ranked is going to keep being more irrelevant, and players are still going to be upset that they lost -14 (with no chance to get a big gain) because they had the misfortune to be paired with a high elo player. At least in the past, they could either gain small/lose small, or gain big/lose big. The system wasn't perfect but worked a hell of a lot better than the current one. You can't just slap a traditional elo system on any game and expect it to work properly, you have to account for differences, in this case, a (significantly) small playerbase, a lack of a competent matchmaking system, asymmetrical play, and a large luck factor.

[Kyrah]

I'm not a 2000+ ELO player YET (1800 something currently, daily player), but these changes have scared me away from playing that game mode entirely. I started playing Ranked because there was actually something at stake besides a win/loss ratio and it added excitement to the game for me. (I've been playing TOS for a couple of years and the other modes don't do it for me anymore.)

The way it stands, it'd be in the best interest of all high elo players NOT to play just to preserve their ELO. That's pretty screwy. You are alienating your veterans with this change at the expense of what? "Here's +0 or +1 ELO because you actually used teamwork and/or strategy and you know the game well." How are low elo players to learn from the veteran ranked players when there are none? Why would anyone want to reach a certain level ELO when the consequence of being high elo is that you lose so much because you keep rolling a FRAMER in a 3 maf/arso/spy/ret low ELO game. Come on! How many games does it take to make up that lost ELO? How realistic is a win streak if you aren't constantly rolling town? That's totally broken, BMG.

Why not ask the veterans or community what they think would fix the ELO issue? I'm sure they would have some great suggestions. (+1 win for vamp win always boggled my mind.) I'm really going to miss everyone picking on Taz if he's quitting. See everyone in the new game modes, I guess.

Edit: -elo amount in example.

[anandre]

@shapesifter, can you guys please respond to any of the criticisms about how you're handling elo right now? It's been over 12 hours and it's radio silence. You have multiple experienced players saying this is a terrible idea, I know many people that I talk with just aren't playing ranked right now because of elo, and we're getting nothing from you. This silence is absolutely infuriating.