Design Changes Coming With Coven

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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Mon May 22, 2017 9:13 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:It does, though.
There can only be one of each unique alive at a time, tell me how this doesn't answer the question. If a Ret tries to revive when Amne already remembered the role, they can't, because here can only be one of each unique alive at a time. If two Amnes try to remember the role, only one can, because there can only be one of each unique alive at a time. How does this not answer your question?

I even said that first, even though I shouldn't have had to. You just complemented the person who took my side, btw.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby Kaladry » Mon May 22, 2017 9:21 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:I even said that first, even though I shouldn't have had to. You just complemented the person who took my side, btw.


Not that it's important, but you didn't say what he did. And technically he still didn't answer my EXACT question. He just got closest to it.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby Kaladry » Mon May 22, 2017 9:46 pm

Kirize12 wrote:Retributionist would either not have that option (no button) or would fail as if they were reviving a Disguiser, I don't know which. Most likely the second one. Does this answer your exact question?


Why yes, yes it does.

Here's a lesson to the rest of you, read the question and answer accordingly.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby mdb1023 » Mon May 22, 2017 9:49 pm

Kaladry wrote:
ElderSivart wrote:
Kaladry wrote:Because I didn't ask about two amnes trying to remember a unique role on the same night. Geez, read my question.

HereThereEverywhere wrote:If a Ret tries to revive when Amne already remembered the role, they can't, because here can only be one of each unique alive at a time.

The Ret cannot bring the Jailor back unless the Amne dies.
There can only be one of each unique role alive at a time. This does answer your question.



Finally, someone else who is intelligent. Thank you although I kind of figured it out by that point despite those two bumbling idiots.


excuse me, there's no need to be rude!

It's not hard to figure out that only one unique role alive at a time means that the answer to your question is no, so you don't really have room to call us bumbling idiots, here.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby Kaladry » Mon May 22, 2017 10:34 pm

mdb1023 wrote:
excuse me, there's no need to be rude!

It's not hard to figure out that only one unique role alive at a time means that the answer to your question is no, so you don't really have room to call us bumbling idiots, here.



1. I wasn't being rude.
2. Yes/no does not answer my original question. Look to Kirize12's comment for the answer I was actually looking for.
3. Look how far off-topic you've gotten us.
4. If you're still reading this refer to my signature.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby PeterTehDumb » Mon May 22, 2017 10:36 pm

Okay that's enough of that, your question doesn't require 1 full page of posts to answer, and you've already gotten your answer, so just cut if off.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby Kaladry » Mon May 22, 2017 10:40 pm

PeterTehDumb wrote:Okay that's enough of that, your question doesn't require 1 full page of posts to answer, and you've already gotten your answer, so just cut if off.


If you read through the comments you'd see I tried to end it after someone actually helpful... they apparently didn't like that though.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby mdb1023 » Mon May 22, 2017 11:25 pm

you actually are being rude by calling people bumbling idiots even thought we answered your question.

and I don't care if it's getting off topic (it technically is on topic), that doesn't give you the right to be rude nor will I tolerate it! If you're going to insult people, I'm going to stand up for it.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby WolfyGamer11 » Mon May 22, 2017 11:58 pm

Additionally, to the amnesiac, could you perhaps remove the fact of "An Amnesiac has remembered the role ____" but instead, say they remebered gf, it would be "An Amnesiac has remembered the role Bodyguard, Arsonist or Godfather"
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby Kaladry » Tue May 23, 2017 12:18 am

WolfyGamer11 wrote:Additionally, to the amnesiac, could you perhaps remove the fact of "An Amnesiac has remembered the role ____" but instead, say they remebered gf, it would be "An Amnesiac has remembered the role Bodyguard, Arsonist or Godfather"



This. I like this. Sometimes it will be a bit obvious what role the Amne has taken on but sometimes it will be a good cover for when they remember a bad role.

I'm not fond of the previous mention of dead not being able to interact for a day, that's just asking for leavers even more. I like that revived people can confirm a Medium too. Although technically what if the Medium had the bad luck of being jailed? So it's not really OP for Medium and Ret, both aren't the greatest anyways so I hope they don't take away one of the only ways to confirm a Medium.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby DrZero11 » Tue May 23, 2017 12:52 am

The changes seem good apart from the witch change. The nerf that she is getting will essentially make her blind again. She was buffed in the first place so she wouldn't end up controlling a medium several times due to coincidence (mafia killing whoever you made the medium target). It also allowed for a witch to claim investigator if accused, however a real invest could counter this if the witch had been investigated, and if they spotted a witching pattern, the witch could be called out. It also allowed for the witch to find potential allies for late game scenarios.
With the change, the witch now goes back to possibly witching a useless role several times. And if she is attacked, whoever attacked her will call her out as immune and she will just get lynched that way. The change just feels like a huge nerf with something that sounds like a buff, but will be a bigger hindrance to said witch. Yes, it will stop the annoying dying to maf or sk n1 before they can do anything, but then they are essentially dead anyway when the mafia/killing role calls them out the next night.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby Jesoko » Tue May 23, 2017 2:26 am

DrZero11 wrote:The changes seem good apart from the witch change. The nerf that she is getting will essentially make her blind again. She was buffed in the first place so she wouldn't end up controlling a medium several times due to coincidence (mafia killing whoever you made the medium target). It also allowed for a witch to claim investigator if accused, however a real invest could counter this if the witch had been investigated, and if they spotted a witching pattern, the witch could be called out. It also allowed for the witch to find potential allies for late game scenarios.
With the change, the witch now goes back to possibly witching a useless role several times. And if she is attacked, whoever attacked her will call her out as immune and she will just get lynched that way. The change just feels like a huge nerf with something that sounds like a buff, but will be a bigger hindrance to said witch. Yes, it will stop the annoying dying to maf or sk n1 before they can do anything, but then they are essentially dead anyway when the mafia/killing role calls them out the next night.


I agree with all of this.

And to add to it, someone said something about mafia being less likely to out immunes if the Witch has one night of immunity. This is a great theory on paper, but in practice, it unfortunately isn't true.

I know because I've been in plenty of RP and AllAny games where there are multiple of the same NK role, but they will still out each other in death notes to keep the heat off themselves. I, myself, see the advantage of keeping quiet, but I can't tell you how many times I've been outed by a fellow SK because they don't realize (or don't care) that they are outing their potential teammate. Just the other day, I was in a game where an SK outed someone as immune in a deathnote and literally said "Sorry if you are my SK brother."

Well, if he knew it was a possibility, he shouldn't have done it at all. Especially since the SK wins over a 1v1 battle with the GF. Could have literally gone on killing everyone until the end and let the game auto-give the win to his team.

And don't get me started on Arsos not recognizing that there are multiple Arsos.

I know there's an argument against taking bad player strat into account, but in this case, nerfing the Witch is putting it at the whim of bad player strat and that really needs to be considered. We already have people not taking advantage of the fact that their own team has multiple night immunities and are instead feeding each other to the town so they can survive longer. This happens ALL THE TIME. There is no reason to believe it won't happen also with the Witch.

I guess I'm not really understanding why the Witch needs to be equal to the new Coven Leader role, especially since none of the old Classic modes are even getting any of the new Coven roles. You're changing the Witch so it resembles its new role more, but this new resemblance doesn't come with any of the advantages it would get if you played it in a Coven mode, except for an advantage that is also a potentially huge liability, AND you are taking away the advantage it was given because it had such a low win rate in the first place. It doesn't even get the benefit of having full or multiple night immunities like the other neutral roles. One and done, and then its completely vulnerable and completely blind.

It's a huge, huge nerf for an already squishy role. One night of night immunity isn't going to help the Witch if he/she doesn't know for sure who the killing roles are and is going to get outed by their own team before they have a chance to.

Except that it isn't really their team is it because in almost all of the cases involving non-immune neutral roles, if you die at night (unless you were Amne and remembered) or if you are lynched (unless you are Jester), you lose all hope of winning. There is no team living on to help you because, like the Surv, you need to be ALIVE in order to win. Even NKs (with the exception of WW) have a chance at winning with their team if as long as one of them is still living. The same with Town and the Mafia. Witches don't have that luxury even if an Amne decides to remember Witch.

I really, really hope you guys reconsider this Witch change, at least for the Classic modes. All you are doing is making the Witch blind again and giving NK and the mafia a scapegoat they can use to keep the heat off of themselves. In my opinion, knowing who you are controlling is way better than being night immune ONCE and not knowing anything for sure.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby BlazinIce » Tue May 23, 2017 3:53 am

@Achilles will every new role added in the game from now on be only accessible once you pay for the Coven?
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby PremedScroll » Tue May 23, 2017 8:20 am

NOOOOOOOO! I CAN'T USE MY VIG CALLING CARD ANYMORE!!!!!!

It's still a fair change though. The two I'm not so keen on are the Doctor being unable to heal Vamp bites, and Witch not being able to cause people to target themselves (and use their self-ability in the process).

But yeah, people hate the Ret role a lot, and I think being able to potentially revive a disguiser is a good move to put it in line. It forces a Ret to pay attention to who they revive.

Besides, It's a bit silly if a Ret of all roles is able to confirm a disguiser to the town because they can't revive them. And lore-wise, how would they really know the disguiser isn't a townie? :lol:
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby Random777 » Tue May 23, 2017 9:45 am

So this post says the roles in this expansion are not going to be in the original game of town of salem, but does that include the new town, mafia, and neutral roles, or just the new coven faction and their roles?
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby sunbird1002 » Tue May 23, 2017 11:17 am

Wait, so with this expansion, does that mean that the base ToS will not get its witch faction? :(
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby LevinSnakesRise » Tue May 23, 2017 11:19 am

Random777 wrote:So this post says the roles in this expansion are not going to be in the original game of town of salem, but does that include the new town, mafia, and neutral roles, or just the new coven faction and their roles?

The new roles won't be included, but changes to classic roles will carry over.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby Sirenfal » Tue May 23, 2017 2:09 pm

Naru2008 wrote:
Random777 wrote:So this post says the roles in this expansion are not going to be in the original game of town of salem, but does that include the new town, mafia, and neutral roles, or just the new coven faction and their roles?

The new roles won't be included, but changes to classic roles will carry over.


this is great news, i will not buy it immediately, but these awesome new roles will soon bring me into the future of tos. it's a matter of time really
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby Matad0r » Tue May 23, 2017 3:34 pm

So, I can see Town not having wills, but an investigating role, such as the investigator, would have written things down. Why not just change how Town wills work? Say... find the notes paper after a day or 2? Nobody likes giving out info as invest unless it is key or confirmed. It would only get them instantly killed. That's why people write it in their wills. Besides, if they forget, they have to scroll up in the chat log, which could get them lynched just as fast. Think we can do something about this?
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby LevinSnakesRise » Tue May 23, 2017 4:04 pm

Matad0r wrote:So, I can see Town not having wills, but an investigating role, such as the investigator, would have written things down. Why not just change how Town wills work? Say... find the notes paper after a day or 2? Nobody likes giving out info as invest unless it is key or confirmed. It would only get them instantly killed. That's why people write it in their wills. Besides, if they forget, they have to scroll up in the chat log, which could get them lynched just as fast. Think we can do something about this?

It's not that the Wills are being removed. Death Notes are.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby Matad0r » Tue May 23, 2017 4:17 pm

Oh. I read it wrong. That you for the clarification. Makes much more sense.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby Supercatquack » Tue May 23, 2017 5:44 pm

Your kidding about the death note thing right?
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Tue May 23, 2017 5:48 pm

Townies use Death Notes to confirm themselves far too easily. No, they are not, and it's a good change.
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby Bigblueelf » Tue May 23, 2017 6:50 pm

Achilles wrote:
Achilles wrote:Jailing
Jailing will now make all targeting fail against the jailed target.

Dev Notes: We felt that jailing was too one sided against harmful abilities but did not punish beneficial abilities. Since all targeting will now fail against a jailed target this means Sheriffs, Investigators, Lookouts, etc can not use their abilities on a jailed target. After all the lore is that the person is not at their house and is in the Jailors jail cell! We feel this will make Jailing a little more punishing to the Town.


All for that (read a little of the lore)

Achilles wrote:Witch
The Witch will grow into the Coven Leader in the expansion. We want the Witch in classic Salem to have a similar feel to the Coven Leader so we have removed the ability for the Witch to see the roles of her victims. We have instead given the Witch a special magical protection barrier that will give basic defense against the first attack directed at her.


NNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. I do like the trade off. The new skill will make the witch less of a power player and back to a game of luck. Before you'd find the SK, GF, WW or Maf killer and use them till you win (or put it in your will and have then join you)

Achilles wrote:Doctor
Doctor heal no longer prevents Vampire conversion


No doctor can bring the dead (soon to be undead) back to life or remove the vampire blood in one night.

Achilles wrote:Medium
Fixed a bug that caused Lookouts to see a dead Medium seance as a visit.


Can you add a way for the dead to know there is a Medium? The biggest pain I find (as a Medium) is the dead quitting within a few min of death and as dead player asking the dead (if any stay) 'any meds?'

Achilles wrote:Death Notes
We have removed all death notes from Town roles. We felt that death notes on Town roles were a powerful tool for Veterans and Jailors to confirm their role so we have removed this ability. Additionally lore wise it seemed weird for Town to leave death notes :)



True and true.

ADDED: Removed the Amni part (after reading a post that answered it for me)
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Re: Design Changes Coming With Coven

Postby Bigblueelf » Tue May 23, 2017 6:51 pm

mdb1023 wrote:
Kaladry wrote:
ElderSivart wrote:
Kaladry wrote:Because I didn't ask about two amnes trying to remember a unique role on the same night. Geez, read my question.

HereThereEverywhere wrote:If a Ret tries to revive when Amne already remembered the role, they can't, because here can only be one of each unique alive at a time.

The Ret cannot bring the Jailor back unless the Amne dies.
There can only be one of each unique role alive at a time. This does answer your question.



Finally, someone else who is intelligent. Thank you although I kind of figured it out by that point despite those two bumbling idiots.


excuse me, there's no need to be rude!

It's not hard to figure out that only one unique role alive at a time means that the answer to your question is no, so you don't really have room to call us bumbling idiots, here.


I just asked to be safe my self lol. After posting I looked back up to see this and now feel silly :oops:
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