DrZero11 wrote:The changes seem good apart from the witch change. The nerf that she is getting will essentially make her blind again. She was buffed in the first place so she wouldn't end up controlling a medium several times due to coincidence (mafia killing whoever you made the medium target). It also allowed for a witch to claim investigator if accused, however a real invest could counter this if the witch had been investigated, and if they spotted a witching pattern, the witch could be called out. It also allowed for the witch to find potential allies for late game scenarios.
With the change, the witch now goes back to possibly witching a useless role several times. And if she is attacked, whoever attacked her will call her out as immune and she will just get lynched that way. The change just feels like a huge nerf with something that sounds like a buff, but will be a bigger hindrance to said witch. Yes, it will stop the annoying dying to maf or sk n1 before they can do anything, but then they are essentially dead anyway when the mafia/killing role calls them out the next night.
I agree with all of this.
And to add to it, someone said something about mafia being less likely to out immunes if the Witch has one night of immunity. This is a great theory on paper, but in practice, it unfortunately isn't true.
I know because I've been in plenty of RP and AllAny games where there are multiple of the same NK role, but they will still out each other in death notes to keep the heat off themselves. I, myself, see the advantage of keeping quiet, but I can't tell you how many times I've been outed by a fellow SK because they don't realize (or don't care) that they are outing their potential teammate. Just the other day, I was in a game where an SK outed someone as immune in a deathnote and literally said "Sorry if you are my SK brother."
Well, if he knew it was a possibility, he shouldn't have done it at all. Especially since the SK wins over a 1v1 battle with the GF. Could have literally gone on killing everyone until the end and let the game auto-give the win to his team.
And don't get me started on Arsos not recognizing that there are multiple Arsos.
I know there's an argument against taking bad player strat into account, but in this case, nerfing the Witch is putting it at the whim of bad player strat and that really needs to be considered. We already have people not taking advantage of the fact that their own team has multiple night immunities and are instead feeding each other to the town so they can survive longer. This happens ALL THE TIME. There is no reason to believe it won't happen also with the Witch.
I guess I'm not really understanding why the Witch needs to be equal to the new Coven Leader role, especially since none of the old Classic modes are even getting any of the new Coven roles. You're changing the Witch so it resembles its new role more, but this new resemblance doesn't come with any of the advantages it would get if you played it in a Coven mode, except for an advantage that is also a potentially huge liability, AND you are taking away the advantage it was given because it had such a low win rate in the first place. It doesn't even get the benefit of having full or multiple night immunities like the other neutral roles. One and done, and then its completely vulnerable and completely blind.
It's a huge, huge nerf for an already squishy role. One night of night immunity isn't going to help the Witch if he/she doesn't know for sure who the killing roles are and is going to get outed by their own team before they have a chance to.
Except that it isn't really their team is it because in almost all of the cases involving non-immune neutral roles, if you die at night (unless you were Amne and remembered) or if you are lynched (unless you are Jester), you lose all hope of winning. There is no team living on to help you because, like the Surv, you need to be ALIVE in order to win. Even NKs (with the exception of WW) have a chance at winning with their team if as long as one of them is still living. The same with Town and the Mafia. Witches don't have that luxury even if an Amne decides to remember Witch.
I really, really hope you guys reconsider this Witch change, at least for the Classic modes. All you are doing is making the Witch blind again and giving NK and the mafia a scapegoat they can use to keep the heat off of themselves. In my opinion, knowing who you are controlling is way better than being night immune ONCE and not knowing anything for sure.