Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:57 pm

MafiaxSK wrote:I’m honestly questioning if people who are saying this list is too Town-sided are playing the same game as me. It’s not prohibitively difficult for mafia to win with this list. I played three games in a row where maf had a clean sweep - and one of them I was maf, one of them I was town, and another I got lynched D2 and had no real effect on the game, so it’s not just me being exceptionally good or bad. In both RP and off-season ranked, there were a decent amount of maf wins. This list is fine imo and BMG’s statistics support that


I think it's slightly too town sided but people are overreacting.

I think we just need to balance a few roles and this list will be perfect
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Spoiler: Town: Jailor
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NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
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NC: Pirate
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby MafiaxSK » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:47 am

12 games in the actual season so far and maf have won 6. Even won one game where GF left N1. The mafia buffs are good enough for balancing imo, and the jailor meta is even stronger with the removal of NK, so that’s an indirect buff to town.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:04 am

MafiaxSK wrote:12 games in the actual season so far and maf have won 6. Even won one game where GF left N1. The mafia buffs are good enough for balancing imo, and the jailor meta is even stronger with the removal of NK, so that’s an indirect buff to town.

I feel like a way to counter jailor meta is currently needed but wee
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby JakeTheSnake5963 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:32 am

Holy hell what have I come back to after a few months of ToS hiatus? After reading many posts throughout various platforms I feel like the community is going to have a god damn civil war.

I think the ranked role list is decent after playing many games with it (compared to the original, and the 2 test versions before it at least), and I am happy to finally have a hard-reset for ranked. Personally, while I do miss NK, I can play it in a few other modes without worry. I see all this negative feedback that has been coursing throughout various platforms about that, but I feel like this may be a classic example of most people who are happy not saying anything at all. This happens all the time in real world politics as people have a greater psychological feeling towards negativity compared to happiness. This causes there to be a silent majority who are happy and a vocal minority who are not, but all people hear about is this vocal minority so things get changed when they don't need to (of course there are definitely situations when the minority is correct in the real world, but this is just a general example). For example, if you enjoyed your burger at [insert restaurant name here], how willing would you be to say so? Many people think that "hey, yeah I would totally say so" but in practice virtually no one does. The only time you say something is when the burger tastes like shit and you want a new one or your money back. This sometimes causes restaurants to have primarily negative online reviews even though they may have good burgers for a good price. My point is that before people go around saying that things need to change because "look at this, 90% of the comments on steam are negative," I feel like this idea should be considered. Instead, maybe there should be a mandatory survey done for all players regarding ranked to get accurate feedback before people go around spreading the idea that "no one" likes the update. It is hurtful to the devs who have worked to balance ranked, and entices them to make impulsive changes that may not better the game overall even if it pleases the vocal minority.

However, I don't believe that this minority should go unheard as a lot of people genuinely do seem to be irked by the changes. Instead, I suggest that there should be a new classic game mode (alongside Ranked, RP, and Classic) that takes a more "fun" centered approach to a ranked role list, whatever "fun" is defined as. Instead of altering ranked even more than it already has, I feel like this could be a fair compromise that seems relatively realistic to implement (I can't say if it is or not for sure cause I'm not a dev). It could be a role list that emphasizes the party game nature of ToS as a whole as not everyone likes the totally random nature of all any, the only classic list that features every NK. In this mode, maybe it could be more swingy, bring back NKs, and maybe even NBs.

Also, as a side note, I feel like there needs to be some sort of tutorial or something to increase player competence as I have had many braindead moments in my ranked placement games which kinda sucks (and I am meaning stuff like getting exed by the jailor as the veteran who killed the witch N1 because "there are too many TK claims"). I would say that other than people just being people which I accept can't be changed, players seem to ignore dead player's wills more than ever before. That is the main issue I believe needs to be tackled (its at least something that can be) as many people seem to just ignore the information of dead people altogether. I don't know if its just me, but when I shoot the GF as vigilante and get killed the same night just to see no one mention something the next day, I feel like my above feelings are at least somewhat justified.

I don't know how helpful this is, but whatever here it is
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Paradox12 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:38 pm

JakeTheSnake5963 wrote:Holy hell what have I come back to after a few months of ToS hiatus? After reading many posts throughout various platforms I feel like the community is going to have a god damn civil war.

I think the ranked role list is decent after playing many games with it (compared to the original, and the 2 test versions before it at least), and I am happy to finally have a hard-reset for ranked. Personally, while I do miss NK, I can play it in a few other modes without worry. I see all this negative feedback that has been coursing throughout various platforms about that, but I feel like this may be a classic example of most people who are happy not saying anything at all. This happens all the time in real world politics as people have a greater psychological feeling towards negativity compared to happiness. This causes there to be a silent majority who are happy and a vocal minority who are not, but all people hear about is this vocal minority so things get changed when they don't need to (of course there are definitely situations when the minority is correct in the real world, but this is just a general example). For example, if you enjoyed your burger at [insert restaurant name here], how willing would you be to say so? Many people think that "hey, yeah I would totally say so" but in practice virtually no one does. The only time you say something is when the burger tastes like shit and you want a new one or your money back. This sometimes causes restaurants to have primarily negative online reviews even though they may have good burgers for a good price. My point is that before people go around saying that things need to change because "look at this, 90% of the comments on steam are negative," I feel like this idea should be considered. Instead, maybe there should be a mandatory survey done for all players regarding ranked to get accurate feedback before people go around spreading the idea that "no one" likes the update. It is hurtful to the devs who have worked to balance ranked, and entices them to make impulsive changes that may not better the game overall even if it pleases the vocal minority.

However, I don't believe that this minority should go unheard as a lot of people genuinely do seem to be irked by the changes. Instead, I suggest that there should be a new classic game mode (alongside Ranked, RP, and Classic) that takes a more "fun" centered approach to a ranked role list, whatever "fun" is defined as. Instead of altering ranked even more than it already has, I feel like this could be a fair compromise that seems relatively realistic to implement (I can't say if it is or not for sure cause I'm not a dev). It could be a role list that emphasizes the party game nature of ToS as a whole as not everyone likes the totally random nature of all any, the only classic list that features every NK. In this mode, maybe it could be more swingy, bring back NKs, and maybe even NBs.

Also, as a side note, I feel like there needs to be some sort of tutorial or something to increase player competence as I have had many braindead moments in my ranked placement games which kinda sucks (and I am meaning stuff like getting exed by the jailor as the veteran who killed the witch N1 because "there are too many TK claims"). I would say that other than people just being people which I accept can't be changed, players seem to ignore dead player's wills more than ever before. That is the main issue I believe needs to be tackled (its at least something that can be) as many people seem to just ignore the information of dead people altogether. I don't know if its just me, but when I shoot the GF as vigilante and get killed the same night just to see no one mention something the next day, I feel like my above feelings are at least somewhat justified.

I don't know how helpful this is, but whatever here it is

A new classic list that features NK should be similar to the old list and should probably replace the current classic gamemode which is just a shithole and the rolelist is terrible.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Royee » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:45 pm

Paradox12 wrote:
JakeTheSnake5963 wrote:Holy hell what have I come back to after a few months of ToS hiatus? After reading many posts throughout various platforms I feel like the community is going to have a god damn civil war.

I think the ranked role list is decent after playing many games with it (compared to the original, and the 2 test versions before it at least), and I am happy to finally have a hard-reset for ranked. Personally, while I do miss NK, I can play it in a few other modes without worry. I see all this negative feedback that has been coursing throughout various platforms about that, but I feel like this may be a classic example of most people who are happy not saying anything at all. This happens all the time in real world politics as people have a greater psychological feeling towards negativity compared to happiness. This causes there to be a silent majority who are happy and a vocal minority who are not, but all people hear about is this vocal minority so things get changed when they don't need to (of course there are definitely situations when the minority is correct in the real world, but this is just a general example). For example, if you enjoyed your burger at [insert restaurant name here], how willing would you be to say so? Many people think that "hey, yeah I would totally say so" but in practice virtually no one does. The only time you say something is when the burger tastes like shit and you want a new one or your money back. This sometimes causes restaurants to have primarily negative online reviews even though they may have good burgers for a good price. My point is that before people go around saying that things need to change because "look at this, 90% of the comments on steam are negative," I feel like this idea should be considered. Instead, maybe there should be a mandatory survey done for all players regarding ranked to get accurate feedback before people go around spreading the idea that "no one" likes the update. It is hurtful to the devs who have worked to balance ranked, and entices them to make impulsive changes that may not better the game overall even if it pleases the vocal minority.

However, I don't believe that this minority should go unheard as a lot of people genuinely do seem to be irked by the changes. Instead, I suggest that there should be a new classic game mode (alongside Ranked, RP, and Classic) that takes a more "fun" centered approach to a ranked role list, whatever "fun" is defined as. Instead of altering ranked even more than it already has, I feel like this could be a fair compromise that seems relatively realistic to implement (I can't say if it is or not for sure cause I'm not a dev). It could be a role list that emphasizes the party game nature of ToS as a whole as not everyone likes the totally random nature of all any, the only classic list that features every NK. In this mode, maybe it could be more swingy, bring back NKs, and maybe even NBs.

Also, as a side note, I feel like there needs to be some sort of tutorial or something to increase player competence as I have had many braindead moments in my ranked placement games which kinda sucks (and I am meaning stuff like getting exed by the jailor as the veteran who killed the witch N1 because "there are too many TK claims"). I would say that other than people just being people which I accept can't be changed, players seem to ignore dead player's wills more than ever before. That is the main issue I believe needs to be tackled (its at least something that can be) as many people seem to just ignore the information of dead people altogether. I don't know if its just me, but when I shoot the GF as vigilante and get killed the same night just to see no one mention something the next day, I feel like my above feelings are at least somewhat justified.

I don't know how helpful this is, but whatever here it is

A new classic list that features NK should be similar to the old list and should probably replace the current classic gamemode which is just a shithole and the rolelist is terrible.

agree
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby superdog551 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:55 pm

How is anyone winning as mafia? So far from what Ive played town is on a 14 game winstreak continuing off of their 9 last night. Am I just that unlucky? Just in my experience playing so far mafia can only win out of pure luck.

Edit: Maf finally won one because when it was 5 v 3 the jailor exed an investigator instead of protecting the revealed mayor which made it 3 v 3. That's the pure luck I am talking about
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby spiraboo » Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:54 pm

superdog551 wrote:How is anyone winning as mafia? So far from what Ive played town is on a 14 game winstreak continuing off of their 9 last night. Am I just that unlucky? Just in my experience playing so far mafia can only win out of pure luck.

Edit: Maf finally won one because when it was 5 v 3 the jailor exed an investigator instead of protecting the revealed mayor which made it 3 v 3. That's the pure luck I am talking about


From my experience it's one of the followings:

1. gained majority quickly by either townies disconnecting or making mistakes with lynches
2. bad town play (TIs not reporting their results, reluctant to vfr or lynch suspects), so the town just sat there and waited for their death
3. witch getting really lucky and found vig super quick
4. Maf finding the witch and work with him on occupying TPs/disrupting jailor executions etc
5. Jailor meta game but mafia has bmer - getting all the roles and unravelled the chain to jailor, bming TI.

4 & 5 rarely happens, it's mostly 1.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:20 pm

spiraboo wrote:
superdog551 wrote:How is anyone winning as mafia? So far from what Ive played town is on a 14 game winstreak continuing off of their 9 last night. Am I just that unlucky? Just in my experience playing so far mafia can only win out of pure luck.

Edit: Maf finally won one because when it was 5 v 3 the jailor exed an investigator instead of protecting the revealed mayor which made it 3 v 3. That's the pure luck I am talking about


From my experience it's one of the followings:

1. gained majority quickly by either townies disconnecting or making mistakes with lynches
2. bad town play (TIs not reporting their results, reluctant to vfr or lynch suspects), so the town just sat there and waited for their death
3. witch getting really lucky and found vig super quick
4. Maf finding the witch and work with him on occupying TPs/disrupting jailor executions etc
5. Jailor meta game but mafia has bmer - getting all the roles and unravelled the chain to jailor, bming TI.

4 & 5 rarely happens, it's mostly 1.

Definitely felt like 5 mafia required skill on both sides.

Currently it does feel like town have it quite a bit easier
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Mafia: Consort
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby SkorumpowanyGlut » Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:37 am

RIP NK
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby OreCreeper » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:39 am

spiraboo wrote:
superdog551 wrote:How is anyone winning as mafia? So far from what Ive played town is on a 14 game winstreak continuing off of their 9 last night. Am I just that unlucky? Just in my experience playing so far mafia can only win out of pure luck.

Edit: Maf finally won one because when it was 5 v 3 the jailor exed an investigator instead of protecting the revealed mayor which made it 3 v 3. That's the pure luck I am talking about


From my experience it's one of the followings:

1. gained majority quickly by either townies disconnecting or making mistakes with lynches
2. bad town play (TIs not reporting their results, reluctant to vfr or lynch suspects), so the town just sat there and waited for their death
3. witch getting really lucky and found vig super quick
4. Maf finding the witch and work with him on occupying TPs/disrupting jailor executions etc
5. Jailor meta game but mafia has bmer - getting all the roles and unravelled the chain to jailor, bming TI.

4 & 5 rarely happens, it's mostly 1.

It's mostly just pushing a mislynch on d2 and stopping jailor executions n2 which should result in 6v6 d3 if all goes smoothly.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby AMikeCk » Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:28 pm

Welp, I guess we're just going with this, then. I've been a faithful player for the last five years, but with the way you went about this I do not feel heard, and I'm out.

Rolelists with multiple static roles are poison to this game's life expectancy. It's the difference between me playing 2-3 games a day and still not feeling like it's enough, and me jumping in once every couple months, playing two games, and already being sick of it. RIP old-school Town of Salem, I'm gonna miss you like crazy. :cry:
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Brilliand » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:14 pm

AMikeCk wrote:Welp, I guess we're just going with this, then. I've been a faithful player for the last five years, but with the way you went about this I do not feel heard, and I'm out.

Rolelists with multiple static roles are poison to this game's life expectancy. It's the difference between me playing 2-3 games a day and still not feeling like it's enough, and me jumping in once every couple months, playing two games, and already being sick of it. RIP old-school Town of Salem, I'm gonna miss you like crazy. :cry:


Keep in mind that there are a variety of people with different opinions here. If you're complaining that BMG didn't do enough "active listening", then I agree with you on that... but if you're complaining that they didn't do what you want, well it isn't possible to do what everyone wants.

Oh, and consider that there are other gamemodes besides Ranked. Town of Salem is not a single rolelist.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Gaelenmyr » Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:03 pm

I have been Master elo for the last few years and I am back to 1100 from 2800? I know the meaning of hard reset, but really? Not even 1400-500? Nah, I'm out.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby AMikeCk » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:37 pm

Brilliand wrote:
AMikeCk wrote:Welp, I guess we're just going with this, then. I've been a faithful player for the last five years, but with the way you went about this I do not feel heard, and I'm out.

Rolelists with multiple static roles are poison to this game's life expectancy. It's the difference between me playing 2-3 games a day and still not feeling like it's enough, and me jumping in once every couple months, playing two games, and already being sick of it. RIP old-school Town of Salem, I'm gonna miss you like crazy. :cry:


Keep in mind that there are a variety of people with different opinions here. If you're complaining that BMG didn't do enough "active listening", then I agree with you on that... but if you're complaining that they didn't do what you want, well it isn't possible to do what everyone wants.

Oh, and consider that there are other gamemodes besides Ranked. Town of Salem is not a single rolelist.


You mean Classic/Rainbow/TT, all of which have even more static roles in their respective lists?

Or do you mean All Any or custom lobbies, which have such a YOLO-4FUN mentality attached to them that you're lucky to get one game in twenty where people take it even remotely seriously?

Like fine, I get it: Ranked is supposed to be the pinnacle of competitive play, and if the most serious competitive players want predictability and consistency over literally every other design consideration then fair is fair. But as a 2-3 game per day, Master elo, 5-year veteran who likes the balance of randomized, multi-faction setups within loose parameters, I don't just feel like I'm being squeezed out of Ranked; I feel like I'm being squeezed out of ToS entirely. There's just nowhere left for me to go, and that's a huge bummer.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Brilliand » Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:24 am

AMikeCk wrote:
Brilliand wrote:Oh, and consider that there are other gamemodes besides Ranked. Town of Salem is not a single rolelist.


You mean Classic/Rainbow/TT, all of which have even more static roles in their respective lists?

Or do you mean All Any or custom lobbies, which have such a YOLO-4FUN mentality attached to them that you're lucky to get one game in twenty where people take it even remotely seriously?


I was thinking of All Any and Custom (though Soulshade55r's proposal also has merit). I notice that your objection to them is about the players, not the gamemode.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Ezradekezra » Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:50 pm

Gaelenmyr wrote:I have been Master elo for the last few years and I am back to 1100 from 2800? I know the meaning of hard reset, but really? Not even 1400-500? Nah, I'm out.

It shouldn't be that hard to get back up to master rank, now that the list is more skill-based and less "please don't make me Mafia for the 6th time in a row".

AMikeCk wrote:Welp, I guess we're just going with this, then. I've been a faithful player for the last five years, but with the way you went about this I do not feel heard, and I'm out.

Rolelists with multiple static roles are poison to this game's life expectancy. It's the difference between me playing 2-3 games a day and still not feeling like it's enough, and me jumping in once every couple months, playing two games, and already being sick of it. RIP old-school Town of Salem, I'm gonna miss you like crazy. :cry:

I don't see what's so bad about static roles. Lovers only has 4 randomized slots, and it's still pretty fun.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:14 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:
Gaelenmyr wrote:I have been Master elo for the last few years and I am back to 1100 from 2800? I know the meaning of hard reset, but really? Not even 1400-500? Nah, I'm out.

It shouldn't be that hard to get back up to master rank, now that the list is more skill-based and less "please don't make me Mafia for the 6th time in a row".

AMikeCk wrote:Welp, I guess we're just going with this, then. I've been a faithful player for the last five years, but with the way you went about this I do not feel heard, and I'm out.

Rolelists with multiple static roles are poison to this game's life expectancy. It's the difference between me playing 2-3 games a day and still not feeling like it's enough, and me jumping in once every couple months, playing two games, and already being sick of it. RIP old-school Town of Salem, I'm gonna miss you like crazy. :cry:

I don't see what's so bad about static roles. Lovers only has 4 randomized slots, and it's still pretty fun.


Nah dawg frick lovers it's such a cool concept with a shit role list
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Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Brilliand » Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:55 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:Nah dawg frick lovers it's such a cool concept with a shit role list


What should the Lovers rolelist be?
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:24 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:Nah dawg frick lovers it's such a cool concept with a shit role list


What should the Lovers rolelist be?

Sounds silly:
Jailor
2 Ti
2 Tp
1 Ts
3 RT
Godfather
2 Ms
3 Rc
1 NK

*Evils with lovers will not know who the other evils are, but they win with their evil faction even when dead, but they can win with their lover either side.
*Evils with lovers get lowest prority for promotion and necronomicon.
*Gf/Bg/Vig, cannot have lovers
*Lovers speak at Night and have completely hidden whispers even from bmer.
3 Groups of lovers (1 Always Town and evil)

Something similar to having factions actually be aganist each other in use their abilites to help town maybe this is too town sided but something more fleshed out would be perfect
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NC: Pirate
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Brilliand » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:12 pm

Soulshade55r wrote: Spoiler:
Brilliand wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:Nah dawg frick lovers it's such a cool concept with a shit role list


What should the Lovers rolelist be?

Sounds silly:
Jailor
2 Ti
2 Tp
1 Ts
3 RT
Godfather
2 Ms
3 Rc
1 NK

*Evils with lovers will not know who the other evils are, but they win with their evil faction even when dead, but they can win with their lover either side.
*Evils with lovers get lowest prority for promotion and necronomicon.
*Gf/Bg/Vig, cannot have lovers
*Lovers speak at Night and have completely hidden whispers even from bmer.
3 Groups of lovers (1 Always Town and evil)

Something similar to having factions actually be aganist each other in use their abilites to help town maybe this is too town sided but something more fleshed out would be perfect


That sounds like fun, but I'd be worried about members of the Mafia and/or Coven outing the rest of their team to win with their Town lover.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:17 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote: Spoiler:
Brilliand wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:Nah dawg frick lovers it's such a cool concept with a shit role list


What should the Lovers rolelist be?

Sounds silly:
Jailor
2 Ti
2 Tp
1 Ts
3 RT
Godfather
2 Ms
3 Rc
1 NK

*Evils with lovers will not know who the other evils are, but they win with their evil faction even when dead, but they can win with their lover either side.
*Evils with lovers get lowest prority for promotion and necronomicon.
*Gf/Bg/Vig, cannot have lovers
*Lovers speak at Night and have completely hidden whispers even from bmer.
3 Groups of lovers (1 Always Town and evil)

Something similar to having factions actually be aganist each other in use their abilites to help town maybe this is too town sided but something more fleshed out would be perfect


That sounds like fun, but I'd be worried about members of the Mafia and/or Coven outing the rest of their team to win with their Town lover.


That's why mafia/cov with lovers don't know who their team is
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Ezradekezra » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:20 pm

I feel like the Lovers role list is perfectly fine as-is, but I'd support swapping the Pirate for a Juggernaut to avoid the dilemma of pirating your lover.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby AMikeCk » Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:15 am

Look, the static roles in the Lovers list work because the game mode introduces randomness in other ways. Yes, almost all of the roles are static, but the lover pairings are definitely not.

This is not true in Classic or in new Ranked.

And again, I get why: there are a lot of competitive players who really, really can't stand that the better players don't always win 100% of the time.

Personally, I'd rather see a dynamic, varied ranked experience where the best players win 60 to 70% of the time rather than see the game mode slip ever more rapidly toward being a solved game because there's zero freaking variance, but heaven forbid anyone ever lose a game that they deserved to win, or vice-versa.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Brilliand » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:16 am

AMikeCk wrote:Look, the static roles in the Lovers list work because the game mode introduces randomness in other ways. Yes, almost all of the roles are static, but the lover pairings are definitely not.


The major problem with Lovers is that some players roll "solo evil", which sucks to play as.

AMikeCk wrote:And again, I get why: there are a lot of competitive players who really, really can't stand that the better players don't always win 100% of the time.

Personally, I'd rather see a dynamic, varied ranked experience where the best players win 60 to 70% of the time rather than see the game mode slip ever more rapidly toward being a solved game because there's zero freaking variance, but heaven forbid anyone ever lose a game that they deserved to win, or vice-versa.


Even Mafia games with completely static lists are still probabilistic, because the scum shake things up by choosing a different daytime strategy each game. There's a whole faction whose win chances depend on keeping things confusing.
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