Patch 3.3.1d Updated Ranked Rolelistx3

[Paradox12]

I've played it some and I found some things that could still be fixed imo. Instead of Executioner, they should add neutral benign, and add Jester to neutral benign. This way, Town doesn't automatically lose majority when Witch, Executioner, and Mafia team up early, and Mafia would still have a guaranteed 5th member. Amnesiac and Jester also add tons of interesting games, and Survivor does add in some king making issues, but I don't think it's much of a problem.

I'd be in support of neutral benign if mafia got some buffs to counter jailor meta rn a couple of suggestions would be to

Buff Mafioso so he has 1-2 shots of a ninja kill.
Buff consigilere so he can see Lo results aswell as learning targets role or in turn have something similar to trapper with sering roles who visit.
Buff framer idk how we can do this because I feel like Disguiser does a great job

Nerf Transporter so they cannot self trans.
Nerf jailor so they cannot jail someone twice in a row.

I'm more in favor of limiting self-transes because TPs can (for the most part) have self-protection, so transporter should be able to protect themselves as well, but being able to do it indefinitely is what makes trans OP. Implementing something similar to TMK would be a way better solution for chain jailing than preventing jailor from jailing someone twice in a row, because sometimes that's kinda needed if something happened during the day that confirms the jailed person as evil when the jailor wasn't sure previously.

[Ezradekezra]

I don't see why people want to move Exe and Jest to NB when those roles are in no way benign. I can kinda understand the arguments for moving Exe and Jest to NC (the wincon does kinda fit in NC), but that would leave Witch was the only NE role, which doesn't feel right imo. I think there needs to be one or two more NE roles in general, since that alignment is a bit lacking especially in Coven modes.

[Brilliand]

I don't see why people want to move Exe and Jest to NB when those roles are in no way benign. I can kinda understand the arguments for moving Exe and Jest to NC (the wincon does kinda fit in NC), but that would leave Witch was the only NE role, which doesn't feel right imo. I think there needs to be one or two more NE roles in general, since that alignment is a bit lacking especially in Coven modes.

The proper solution is to add new NE roles with the same wincon as Witch. That means the category reshuffling should wait until BMG is ready to add new roles.

[Ezradekezra]

I don't see why people want to move Exe and Jest to NB when those roles are in no way benign. I can kinda understand the arguments for moving Exe and Jest to NC (the wincon does kinda fit in NC), but that would leave Witch was the only NE role, which doesn't feel right imo. I think there needs to be one or two more NE roles in general, since that alignment is a bit lacking especially in Coven modes.

The proper solution is to add new NE roles with the same wincon as Witch. That means the category reshuffling should wait until BMG is ready to add new roles.

Insert shameless plug here.

That's kinda what I'm saying, though. It's a bad idea to remove Exe and Jest from NE without adding any new NE roles.

[Tislen]

I personally love having Exe in role list (I just love Exe period), though I do want to note this list now provides (*with cooperation from Witch AND Exe, which is in not as ensured as it used to be [though pretty likely as long as you don't lynch Exe target d2*) the mafia with the help of Witch and Exe can consistently kill n1 -> misslynch d2 -> stop Jailor from executing + kill n2 -> lynch Jailor d3. I don't think this is wrong, I just think it will heavily discourage Jailor meta of claiming d1 and appreciate the effort provided in this list to subvert that standard.

Very cool list.

[MaybeLaterx]

I personally love having Exe in role list (I just love Exe period), though I do want to note this list now provides (*with cooperation from Witch AND Exe, which is in not as ensured as it used to be [though pretty likely as long as you don't lynch Exe target d2*) the mafia with the help of Witch and Exe can consistently kill n1 -> misslynch d2 -> stop Jailor from executing + kill n2 -> lynch Jailor d3. I don't think this is wrong, I just think it will heavily discourage Jailor meta of claiming d1 and appreciate the effort provided in this list to subvert that standard.

Very cool list.

That's a very interesting point! Guaranteed witch is almost like rolling 100% consort, so the jailor is out of luck unless the witch herself is jailed.

I wondered if no guaranteed Jester meant you could just lynch early without repercussion, but from the first day of voting Exe could already be Jester - it's more of a numbers game now (the longer you wait the more likely it's jest), though this isn't really a change. I think it works well, keeping all the NE possible.

The reason I was keen to see this list is it gives NE another NE 'ally', if they can spot and trust each other. Someone mentioned town losing majority still being the same threshold - but you're assuming NEs will play nice and be smart. The mafia hivemind can usually dogpile someone with just 2 brain cells between them, but NE usually has to figure out of its town or mafia dogpiling. Some people find this easy but I'm still pretty bad at this.
I guess another point here is that if Exe does roll Jester, he's not always on Mafia's side - usually a maf just wants to kill everything else and let jester lose, as he's a bit of a wildcard.

It also makes townies claiming NE surprisingly effective - in a 2v5v2, me and a transporter managed to get the Executioner and the Witch hanged by Mafia alone. We still lost, but it's some hilarious claimspace.

I did notice that Sheriff/Exe/Ww is a fairly benign investigative result. Doc/disg/sk and Bg/gf/arso still seem fine tho.

Tk is quite hard to claim in a 100% witch game. This might be more of a meta change than a problem. Maybe more fake claims or less vfr.

I've enjoyed the couple games I played of it. Enjoying the rapid prototyping too!

[orangeandblack5]

ngl if Exe is guaranteed Sheriff/Exe probably works just fine lol

[kiromishiro21]

Not feeling the Exe slot tbqh, still think 10v5 is the move

But we'll give it a fair shake

Loving the rapid prototyping! Fantastic that this is happening!!!

Basically this
I get that there are two camps here with opposing desires, but I'm sad to see that this list has more neutrals

10 vs 5 is not the essence of town of salem. Town of salem is a game of many factions. It is good that they think of a game mode they are nk but I do not find it funny that they remove the ne too.


I don't think I'm the only one but ... I feel good if I win alone. I mean I feel adrenaline when I play some role like witch, exe, jester or any neutral killing. Not having a permanent team is exciting

[orangeandblack5]

Not feeling the Exe slot tbqh, still think 10v5 is the move

But we'll give it a fair shake

Loving the rapid prototyping! Fantastic that this is happening!!!

Basically this
I get that there are two camps here with opposing desires, but I'm sad to see that this list has more neutrals

10 vs 5 is not the essence of town of salem. Town of salem is a game of many factions. It is good that they think of a game mode they are nk but I do not find it funny that they remove the ne too.


I don't think I'm the only one but ... I feel good if I win alone. I mean I feel adrenaline when I play some role like witch, exe, jester or any neutral killing. Not having a permanent team is exciting

Town of Salem is a Mafia derivative

The other roles are cool and fun and all but in Ranked you really want to maximize the room for player skill to shine and a straight team game is by far the best way to accomplish that.

[Whiskey]

I actually really like this version of the list. It feels pretty balanced to me and still takes skill to win as either town or mafia. There is still an element of challenge to play as either side. The only thing I've noticed is that mafia doesn't seem to automatically view exe as on their side, and neither does town. In the games I've been playing, mafia hasn't been using exe/jester as a voting tool. Exe will be the new NK in this list where it will be the hardest role to win with, since neither town nor mafia really wants exe on their side.

Apart from that - I like it!

[Ezradekezra]

Is there any chance that the next role list test will also include a Coven list? The game mode is a bit dead, but it might get a few more players if the role list was updated.

[DiamondRanger8]

From my experience Mafia still wins very often, since it's a guaranteed 6v9, so I think the better idea would be to replace Executioner with Neutral Benign. That way, we have Witch that has to side with Mafia, and the Neutral Benign who can side with whoever they choose.

[Gabrote42]

Hello. After reading through the three threads and playing ten games, I find the new list very restricting. I enjoyed the Chaos of NK and the amount of plays one can make, especially as Evils, has been cut down significantly (forger forging NE day 1 for example). In my opinion, without even taking into account leavers, this feels somewhat limiting. I'm gonna state the unpopular opinion and say that I liked NK, NB and NE all the same. I think this is better than all previous iterations of the changes, but I would love for one of those slots to be changed to RN. If this stays, so be it, and I get that Ranked should be more balanced than average but I don't get why fixing NK if it gets removed from the biggest competent playerbase. I would prefer that but this is still better than the previous few iterations.
Keep in mind that I failed to get either Exe, Vig, Forger or Sheriff.

[ZedKiller13]

From what I can infer this role list is very good. The known presence of a Witch along with an Executioner is a good choice for the Neutral side, and the standard GF+Mafioso with 2 Random Mafia works out best in my opinion.

The ideal ranked situation would be where everyone is good, so the Town knowing mistakes will cost them dearly combined with a decent Mafia gives both sides pressure.

Although the Jailor meta is still an issue now, the sheer power of evils can negate that factor. If the Jailor meta proves to be a real issue they can replace a RM with Ambusher which would probably entirely kill it off. (Two town deaths N1 and failure to lynch a Mafia the following day is a game over for town in most scenarios provided Exe isn't a Jester and Jailor doesn't lock down MK)

[Ezradekezra]

To be honest, I'd be satisfied if this, the last test, or a pure 10v5 ended up as the final list for season 5. Everything so far seems way more skill-based and less "please don't give me Mafia for the 60th time in a row" than the season 4 list, with the exception of the first test list that we don't talk about anymore.

[Brilliand]

Although the Jailor meta is still an issue now, the sheer power of evils can negate that factor. If the Jailor meta proves to be a real issue they can replace a RM with Ambusher which would probably entirely kill it off. (Two town deaths N1 and failure to lynch a Mafia the following day is a game over for town in most scenarios provided Exe isn't a Jester and Jailor doesn't lock down MK)

Ambusher on Jailor N1 essentially guarantees that the Ambusher will be lynched D2, so I don't think your "two town deaths N1 followed by failure to lynch a Mafia" scenario is plausible (at least not as something that can be avoided by not using the Jailor meta).

[iAINTaTAXI]

As many people are saying, NK being totally removed isn't the best. Perhaps "any" would be able to solve that?

The first issue is that WW is busted after n4. In my view, night 6 needs to be regular (no full moon). SK is pretty balanced and I personally enjoy arso in its current form.

Finally, in terms of the town I would only consider re-working spy. But all in all if you are thinking for sticking with the ranked list with no NK, I would advocate for 2 neutral evils instead of the current format (witch + exe). No neutral Evil role is unique, is it?

[Brilliand]

As many people are saying, NK being totally removed isn't the best. Perhaps "any" would be able to solve that?

No no, NK being totally removed is definitely the best.

To be specific, it's definitely better than having an NK only some of the time. That would be the worst possible outcome. If there must be an NK, it should be guaranteed.

But all in all if you are thinking for sticking with the ranked list with no NK, I would advocate for 2 neutral evils instead of the current format (witch + exe). No neutral Evil role is unique, is it?

So you want more randomness between Witch and Exe/Jester, which differ greatly in what effect they have on the game. That means: More swing (the extremes being "double witch" which is very good for maf, and "double jester" which sucks for maf).

[orangeandblack5]

Been playing some games and I'll echo the fact that this list or 10v5 would both be great choices and huge improvements

[LewisFaisal]

Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative/Protective/Killing [rt allows for support which 5 TS will simply be busted]
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
GodFather
Mafioso/RM
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

The best thing about the list before the current one was that [at least the games I played], it felt like an epic battle between Town and Mafia. I personally loved the fact that town was punished alot more for being dumb. The biggest issue with the rolelist BEFORE the 5vs9 was that Mafia would essentially always lose a 4vs10 scenario [with NE that had so much incentive to work with town], since they would need a total of 3 mislynches/exes to actually have a chance, which is ridiculous [unless town is twiddling their thumbs].

So having a 5 mafia verse 10 town [with no NE] scenario will make mafia strong enough to contest the ten town, but won't punish town for messing up nearly as much as before.

Mafia would need 2 mislynches/exes, which feels about right. The mafia would need to collaborate to win, while the town would need to get their shit together before eventually losing majority.

I don't like witch + exe, as witch not knowing mafia can be detrimental. If a mafioso is playing good acting like a confirmed sheriff, a witch may be incentivised to send a vigi claim into a mafioso. This makes it more of a "quick find the witch before they can do more harm than good" [trying to scumread] as oppose to what mafia should be trying to do, collaborating to confuse the town.
And Executioner being half-to-quarter evil is dumb, they just add swing like Survivor after getting their lynch

In my opinion, the 5 mafia verse 9 town rolelist was amazing, but if it's considered too strong for mafia, 5 mafia vs 10 town might be the way to go.

EDIT: Scumreading a witch as mafia isn't always free, as you're assuming that 1. the witch is scummy and 2. town is less scummy, which, in many games I've played, isn't always true.

[LewisFaisal]

10 vs 5 is not the essence of town of salem. Town of salem is a game of many factions. It is good that they think of a game mode they are nk but I do not find it funny that they remove the ne too.


I don't think I'm the only one but ... I feel good if I win alone. I mean I feel adrenaline when I play some role like witch, exe, jester or any neutral killing. Not having a permanent team is exciting

I agree winning as NE/NK is amazing, but for a ranked setting, 10vs5 is less swingy than 9v4v1v1. Exes are kingmakers in the proposed rolelist, and witch is a gamble.

[PatrykSzczescie]

I have watched a few games with this rolelist and I really love it. Executioner and witch is the best match, I couldn't imagine anything better. I will point out reasons supporting my claim.

First, N1 evil deaths: in this rolelist, evils have reduced death rate.
- No N1 jester deaths, as jester doesn't exist on N1.
- Executioner doesn't die on N1.
- Witch cannot be targeted N1 to die anymore (mafia + SK hit), the only ways would be vet or ambusher + mafia hit.
- Mafia cannot die by evils unless witch controls mafia leading kill into another mafia, which is rarer than being hit by NK.

Second, what did NE mean in the previous seasons, do you remember?
- Witched claim -> no exe/jester (except for the witched claim) -> town pushing into lynches, believing sus reports, TK nerf especially when outed.
- No witched claim -> potential exe/jester -> town is afraid of guiltying and is less to believe sus report, TK doesn't mind outing, TK can be tested easily.
What does exe+witch mean? TK nerf + sus report nerf + lynch nerf.

And now, explaining how the balancing goes to counter assumption that the rolelist is too townsided: executioner to get wins will have to side against town because town will not help exe win by sacrificing a town member. Literally, a single mislynch may lead to a mafia win. Games may usually go this way 9v6 -> mafia kills town -> 8v6 -> exe incriminates the target to get them lynched, evils and a few unaware town individuals help exe -> 7v6 -> jailor tries to execute the exe but jailor is controlled by witch, meanwhile mafia makes another kill -> 6v6. And with exe helping mafia, mafia can easily win. Of course ambusher and TK can change the pattern for their advantage, games will have different variations of how they would go. Nevertheless, some games can really make people think this rolelist is townsided but mostly it'd be because of passive evils who don't cc roles or don't incriminate town. Scenarios where maf had no chance of winning from the beginning would be really rare, those would be because of maf doing mistakes, if you think otherwise, point out some cases and I'll prove you wrong.

Jailor meta is nerfed in this rolelist with guaranteed witch, a single mafia member can cc jailor and other evils can back them up. Mafia may expect the witch to control the real jailor which usually would be no problem because the witch would have 2 nights to determine which of jailor cc is real to prevent the jailor from executing the cc. If there's no jailor cc on jailor meta, along with TPs, spies, LOs and escorts, the witch can also visit the jailor and ditch the LOs with TP/spy claim. Then prevent the jailor from further executions. Since town knows there's a witch anyway, the witch would have no intention to hide trying to control mafia on N1, the witch will support the mafia by controlling the jailor.

And last but not least - less kingmaker scenarios: no town vs mafia vs NK. Witch will always side with mafia and the only who can decide which side wins would be won exe or jester. Kingmaker scenarios will be rare.

Summarizing, this rolelist will provide less luck factors and more skill factors to the game:
- random sus reports will not be believed outrightly,
- less evils killing each other which made town quite easier to win without much effort,
- less kingmaker situations, where the winner is decided by the kingmaker's whim.

[orangeandblack5]

Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative/Protective/Killing [rt allows for support which 5 TS will simply be busted]
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
GodFather
Mafioso/RM
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

The best thing about the list before the current one was that [at least the games I played], it felt like an epic battle between Town and Mafia. I personally loved the fact that town was punished alot more for being dumb. The biggest issue with the rolelist BEFORE the 5vs9 was that Mafia would essentially always lose a 4vs10 scenario [with NE that had so much incentive to work with town], since they would need a total of 3 mislynches/exes to actually have a chance, which is ridiculous [unless town is twiddling their thumbs].

So having a 5 mafia verse 10 town [with no NE] scenario will make mafia strong enough to contest the ten town, but won't punish town for messing up nearly as much as before.

Mafia would need 2 mislynches/exes, which feels about right. The mafia would need to collaborate to win, while the town would need to get their shit together before eventually losing majority.

I don't like witch + exe, as witch not knowing mafia can be detrimental. If a mafioso is playing good acting like a confirmed sheriff, a witch may be incentivised to send a vigi claim into a mafioso. This makes it more of a "quick find the witch before they can do more harm than good" [trying to scumread] as oppose to what mafia should be trying to do, collaborating to confuse the town.
And Executioner being half-to-quarter evil is dumb, they just add swing like Survivor after getting their lynch

In my opinion, the 5 mafia verse 9 town rolelist was amazing, but if it's considered too strong for mafia, 5 mafia vs 10 town might be the way to go.

EDIT: Scumreading a witch as mafia isn't always free, as you're assuming that 1. the witch is scummy and 2. town is less scummy, which, in many games I've played, isn't always true.

basically agree with this but also with the points in favor of current except I think they're overselling Exe's effect on pushes being believed

in a 10v5 role list calling somebody out in a 1v1 to sacrifice a member is way easier so you can get Mafia roles that act like Exes except with more coordination

still both 10v5 and this current 9v4v1v1 are fantastic steps in a great direction and I wouldn't mind either one being chosen for the next season

[LewisFaisal]

basically agree with this but also with the points in favor of current except I think they're overselling Exe's effect on pushes being believed

in a 10v5 role list calling somebody out in a 1v1 to sacrifice a member is way easier so you can get Mafia roles that act like Exes except with more coordination

still both 10v5 and this current 9v4v1v1 are fantastic steps in a great direction and I wouldn't mind either one being chosen for the next season

To be fair, I just don't like executioner bcos it's a kingmaker.

[orangeandblack5]

I don't like Executioner because it can townside way too easily for a "Neutral Evil" and becomes one of the worst roles in the game if its target dies

The overall list is still vastly improved, even if I'd still love a 10v5 test