Patch 3.3.1d Updated Ranked Rolelistx3

[OreCreeper]

Consig used to be very powerful and still is in casual gamemodes where most players still try to stay hidden as important roles or maybe even think that getting killed means you lose *cough* classic players (but hey, consig doesn't even spawn in classic). The thing is though its only purpose is to find hidden TPs/mayors or maybe even a no meta jailor occasionally but it's far less powerful than what it used to be. Idk how to buff consig though, giving it LO powers on top of its current ability might be a bit much.

[Ezradekezra]

Consig used to be very powerful and still is in casual gamemodes where most players still try to stay hidden as important roles or maybe even think that getting killed means you lose *cough* classic players (but hey, consig doesn't even spawn in classic). The thing is though its only purpose is to find hidden TPs/mayors or maybe even a no meta jailor occasionally but it's far less powerful than what it used to be. Idk how to buff consig though, giving it LO powers on top of its current ability might be a bit much.

I think giving Consig the ability to see which roles visit their target (like with a Trapper or a FM Agent) might be a helpful buff in Ranked.

[Sey979]

I don't play ranked so I don't know if this role list is good.

[MafiaxSK]

Consig is good for finding the NEs, vigis (who probably shouldn’t be claiming much), unrevealed mayors and retris. It’s easy to fake claim within your invest results, unlike someone like GF or forger. Consig is fine tbh, although now that there’s a guaranteed witch the mafia already kinda has a consig built in if they can work together

[spiraboo]

I think the last role list worked better. The sheer number of mafias were necessary to battle the jailor meta situation. Mafia has a difficult balance of choosing random unknown town members to kill in hope of finding TP so they can get to the jailor, or kill off the TIs to avoid being found out. The extra RM helps this with the likes of disguiser/framer/consort more likely to be in the game

I know this is completely anecdotal to my own play experience, but on the last role list, jailor meta games - town mostly wins, jailor don't come out - mafia mostly won.

Whilst Random NE being a witch means mafia has a 6th member effectively, it's a double edge sword. mafia are way too happy to lynch anyone who's not within their faction, and with witch confirmed, people rarely doubted the sheriff/invest claims.

I think reducing the mafia back to 4 can only really work if there's more to discourage jailor meta - like turning the guaranteed TP slot into RT

[Soulshade55r]

Give mafia a way to defeat jailor meta consistently imo before this list

[DiamondRanger8]

I like this one. Not as interesting as having a Neutral Killing but like people said, balance over fun level, when it comes to competitive lists. I like that Mafia still has a guaranteed 5 Mafia members, but they still have to find the Witch, making Mafia a lot less strong in this one. I have yet to try it, but it looks good so far.

[DiamondRanger8]

Give mafia a way to defeat jailor meta consistently imo before this list

That's my problem with no NKs, but I know what they're going for with Mafia versus Town. I'm not sure why they haven't give Mafioso the ninja attacks they said they were going to, since that would pretty much solve the problem, aside from doctors. I thought they were going to introduce them with Mafia buffs but anyways, a confirmed Mafia role should be able to counter the Jailor meta, either Godfather, Mafioso, Ambusher, or a new role all together.

[DiamondRanger8]

I think the last role list worked better. The sheer number of mafias were necessary to battle the jailor meta situation. Mafia has a difficult balance of choosing random unknown town members to kill in hope of finding TP so they can get to the jailor, or kill off the TIs to avoid being found out. The extra RM helps this with the likes of disguiser/framer/consort more likely to be in the game

I know this is completely anecdotal to my own play experience, but on the last role list, jailor meta games - town mostly wins, jailor don't come out - mafia mostly won.

Whilst Random NE being a witch means mafia has a 6th member effectively, it's a double edge sword. mafia are way too happy to lynch anyone who's not within their faction, and with witch confirmed, people rarely doubted the sheriff/invest claims.

I think reducing the mafia back to 4 can only really work if there's more to discourage jailor meta - like turning the guaranteed TP slot into RT

Mafia got majority WAYY to fast in the 5 player list. This way, Mafia can still have allies without knowing who most of the allies are.

[Soulshade55r]

Give mafia a way to defeat jailor meta consistently imo before this list

That's my problem with no NKs, but I know what they're going for with Mafia versus Town. I'm not sure why they haven't give Mafioso the ninja attacks they said they were going to, since that would pretty much solve the problem, aside from doctors. I thought they were going to introduce them with Mafia buffs but anyways, a confirmed Mafia role should be able to counter the Jailor meta, either Godfather, Mafioso, Ambusher, or a new role all together.

I'd hate a role list with a guaranteed GF/amb/mafioso it's already bad enough that mafioso is a required role because the killing system is meh

[DiamondRanger8]

Give mafia a way to defeat jailor meta consistently imo before this list

That's my problem with no NKs, but I know what they're going for with Mafia versus Town. I'm not sure why they haven't give Mafioso the ninja attacks they said they were going to, since that would pretty much solve the problem, aside from doctors. I thought they were going to introduce them with Mafia buffs but anyways, a confirmed Mafia role should be able to counter the Jailor meta, either Godfather, Mafioso, Ambusher, or a new role all together.

I'd hate a role list with a guaranteed GF/amb/mafioso it's already bad enough that mafioso is a required role because the killing system is meh

What I meant was that they need to rework one of those 3 roles to counter Jailor meta, and the one that is reworked would have to be guaranteed in the list, unless they make a new Mafia Killing role to counter Jailor meta.

[orangeandblack5]

Osservatore

[Warpenguin55]

Not the biggest fan of losing NK.

[MysticMismagius]

Not feeling the Exe slot tbqh, still think 10v5 is the move

But we'll give it a fair shake

Loving the rapid prototyping! Fantastic that this is happening!!!

Basically this
I get that there are two camps here with opposing desires, but I'm sad to see that this list has more neutrals

[Malfoydragon]

The Executioner slot should be replaced with Neutral Evil. I think the possibility of a Jester is really important in Ranked. It brings to the table real consequences for randomly lynching which helps to balance out the game.

[Malfoydragon]

The Executioner slot should be replaced with Neutral Evil. I think the possibility of a Jester is really important in Ranked. It brings to the table real consequences for randomly lynching which helps to balance out the game.

And I know Jester could still pop up because of an Executioner's target dying, but that's not enough. Also, another point is that having a guaranteed Executioner makes it harder for Exe to win because people will be watching for them. The anonymity provided by the Neutral Evil slot helps what is an already difficult role.

[Brilliand]

The Executioner slot should be replaced with Neutral Evil. I think the possibility of a Jester is really important in Ranked. It brings to the table real consequences for randomly lynching which helps to balance out the game.

The possibility of double Witch rolling would not help to balance out the game.

[Malfoydragon]

The Executioner slot should be replaced with Neutral Evil. I think the possibility of a Jester is really important in Ranked. It brings to the table real consequences for randomly lynching which helps to balance out the game.

The possibility of double Witch rolling would not help to balance out the game.

There's 2 solutions to this:
1) The Neutral Evil slot can operate like it does in Coven (meaning only Executioner and Jester can roll).
2) The Witch and Executioner slots can be replaced with Neutral Evil and Neutral Benign slots like I suggested here.

[Brilliand]

There's 2 solutions to this:
1) The Neutral Evil slot can operate like it does in Coven (meaning only Executioner and Jester can roll).

So pretty much exactly what the "Executioner" slot does?

2) The Witch and Executioner slots can be replaced with Neutral Evil and Neutral Benign slots like I suggested here.

Adding Neutral Benign isn't a solution to the risk of two witches spawning; it's an entirely separate bad idea.

[Malfoydragon]

There's 2 solutions to this:
1) The Neutral Evil slot can operate like it does in Coven (meaning only Executioner and Jester can roll).

So pretty much exactly what the "Executioner" slot does?

No, not really. If the NE slot operated like it did in Coven, Executioner and Jester would each have a 50% chance of appearing in the game. As it is now, Executioner has a 100% chance of appearing in the game, and Jester will only show up if the Executioner's target dies.

2) The Witch and Executioner slots can be replaced with Neutral Evil and Neutral Benign slots like I suggested here.

Adding Neutral Benign isn't a solution to the risk of two witches spawning; it's an entirely separate bad idea.

Imo it's better than having a Neutral Killing slot, and it's better than having an overpowered mafia.

[AMikeCk]

Just jumping in to once again—as a five-year veteran of the game—register my extreme disapproval for the trend toward a narrowing possibility space, even in "competitive" lists. I feel like you guys figured out the ideal balance between uncertainty and consistency a few years back with NE/NB/NK slots and now you just keep screwing with it.

No, I'm not interested in a ranked queue where I know at the outset there is definitely a witch. No, I'm not interested in a ranked queue where I know there's definitely an exe. And I am sure as hell not interested in a ranked queue where half the roles are static and predetermined. I honestly struggle to imagine a more reliable formula for making the game as boring and repetitive as possible. There's a reason I avoid Classic like the plague.

[DiamondRanger8]

I've played it some and I found some things that could still be fixed imo. Instead of Executioner, they should add neutral benign, and add Jester to neutral benign. This way, Town doesn't automatically lose majority when Witch, Executioner, and Mafia team up early, and Mafia would still have a guaranteed 5th member. Amnesiac and Jester also add tons of interesting games, and Survivor does add in some king making issues, but I don't think it's much of a problem.

[Soulshade55r]

I've played it some and I found some things that could still be fixed imo. Instead of Executioner, they should add neutral benign, and add Jester to neutral benign. This way, Town doesn't automatically lose majority when Witch, Executioner, and Mafia team up early, and Mafia would still have a guaranteed 5th member. Amnesiac and Jester also add tons of interesting games, and Survivor does add in some king making issues, but I don't think it's much of a problem.

I'd be in support of neutral benign if mafia got some buffs to counter jailor meta rn a couple of suggestions would be to

Buff Mafioso so he has 1-2 shots of a ninja kill.
Buff consigilere so he can see Lo results aswell as learning targets role or in turn have something similar to trapper with sering roles who visit.
Buff framer idk how we can do this because I feel like Disguiser does a great job

Nerf Transporter so they cannot self trans.
Nerf jailor so they cannot jail someone twice in a row.

[Ezradekezra]

Buff framer idk how we can do this because I feel like Disguiser does a great job

Make it apply to more TIs. Just make it so that framed people won't be shown to visit in a LO's or Tracker's results.

This improves Framer's utility while keeping it separate from Disguiser.

[Brilliand]

Consider that any 4-maf rolelist without the NK leaves Maf worse off than before NK was removed. The Town vs. Mafia rolelist really needs to be a 5-maf rolelist (unless it comes with another batch of Mafia buffs).

I've played it some and I found some things that could still be fixed imo. Instead of Executioner, they should add neutral benign, and add Jester to neutral benign. This way, Town doesn't automatically lose majority when Witch, Executioner, and Mafia team up early, and Mafia would still have a guaranteed 5th member. Amnesiac and Jester also add tons of interesting games, and Survivor does add in some king making issues, but I don't think it's much of a problem.

If you want to ensure that Town doesn't lose majority, you need more Town, not more neutrals. In a town of 4 Mafia, Jester, Survivor and 6 Town, Town has lost majority; it's just there are a couple of kingmakers kicking around that might decide to let Town win anyway.