Patch 3.3.1c Update New Ranked Role List!x2

[Tislen]

After playing this role list a bit I can say that it will potentially stop Jailor meta.

Change of getting at least one Consort OR Witch in this list: (1 - (8/9)^3 * (2/3)) which is roughly 53.18%, meaning a reasonable majority of games there WILL be a role that can stop Jailor executes if they reveal. If NE consistently sides with Mafia (which that is actually arguable, as Jester may be inclined not to though Witch and Exe should side with them and Jester at a minimum will lynch Jailor with them) after one kill night one it's 5 maf, 1 NE vs. 8 town, if mafia get ONE misslynch by revealing themself (so claiming Sheriff and doing a 1 for 1) 53% of the time the Jailor that revealed day one will get their execute blocked (Vigis can't kill the target since Jailor jailed them) making the next day a 5 maf, 1 NE vs. 6 town, meaning more often than not at that point mafia will win. A way to avoid this would be for Jailor not to reveal.
That being said, Vigilantes, TPs, a lot can stop this, but also it's risking only at most one to two mafia members to get to a 6v6 scenario here and with four members afterwards it's still possible.

Overall, interesting to see how this influences the meta.

[Ezradekezra]

Tbh I wouldn't be too opposed to this role list being the final one for Season 5. It felt a bit Mafia-sided at first, but it feels like the winrates have evened out as people have adjusted to the new list.

[MafiaxSK]

What’s the probability for each RM role spawning? Isn’t it 7% for each slot?

A witch probably wouldn’t know if a mafia member is jailed, and even if they did it’s a risky move to go on the jailor if there’s a LO alive, since there’s a good chance the witch will get killed for that.

[xXxBenBirVeledimxXx]

Jailor
TI
TI
TP
TK
TS
RT
RT
RT
RT
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Neutral
Any

[MysticMismagius]

Please no

The Any and RN slots allow for Vampires to show up, which makes for an absolute shitshow

[Soulshade55r]

Jailor
TI
TI
TP
TK
TS
RT
RT
RT
RT
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Neutral
Any

So you want 10-11 town and 3-4 mafia...? With a randomly spawning nk or vamps

This is horrible

[Ezradekezra]

Jailor
TI
TI
TP
TK
TS
RT
RT
RT
RT
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Neutral
Any

Only 3 guaranteed Maf is awful

Any slots tend to lean toward the Town, especially in Classic, so this might as well be an 11v3v1 setup.

[shapesifter13]

Quick question: in a world where elo has essentially zero impact on matchmaking, leavers are the rule and not the exception, and straight-up griefers infest the queue at all levels of play, why on earth are we deciding to make balance the be-all-end-all of game design decisions when a very, very large chunk of the community obviously hates the idea of removing neutrals? The game has always had a substantial RNG component. Town vs. Mafia is a nice idea on paper, but in practice it is way, way less fun than the three- or four-faction scenarios we used to get with the old lists.

Stop kidding yourselves: Town of Salem isn't a freaking eSport, and personally I don't think it should be.

I've been playing for over five years, and if ranked gets reduced to Town vs. Mafia then I'm quitting. Sorry, but this isn't a direction for the game that I'm even remotely interested in.

A few things to address, Rating does impact matchmaking, but unless we have variable queue lengths with a system to expand the paramaters of players you are allow to play with over time, OR there is just an absolutely ridiclous amount of ranked players, I can see why you might feel this way. The higher rank you go, the less players there are that are similarly ranked, so you generally get matched down. Same goes the opposite way. This would not be an easy system to implement, and would be a big change to our queueing system overall.

Greifers are a problem in any game, and outside of reporting them, and them being suspended there isn't really a solution. If you have one feel free to suggest it.

Balance is something that has an effect on the fun of a game. If a game is balanced it is generally more fun. Things can be overbalanced to not be fun for sure. Saying a large portion of the community hates the idea of removing neutrals isn't necessarily true though. There are players that do no like us removing neutrals, but with any change, people that like it, tend to not go to the forums, or anywhere to praise us. People tend to only comment on the state of something when it is not what they want. That's why its important to listen to feedback, but not take it as gospel.

I agree that ToS has RNG elements for sure. Its an act of balancing through imbalance, and balance through actual balance. This game will never be perfectly balanced, even if the winrates are perfectly balanced because there are essentially hundreds of different role list combinations, if not thousands(didn't do the math), and each individual one of those combinations could have different win rates.

Town vs Mafia allows for less variables, which can create better balance, and I won't argue that some players could find it less fun. Other players could find it more fun though, as seen in this thread. There are other modes that are less balanced, and more variable, so it might be worth considering playing those kinds of modes over ranked. Fun is very subjective, and hard to measure.

[OreCreeper]

Jailor
TI
TI
TP
TK
TS
RT
RT
RT
RT
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Neutral
Any

Lmfao nice shitpost dude

[Whiskey]

I do think this new list is more fun to play than the first version where there were 10 town. It's not as addictive as the original ranked list with an NK and I wonder if there are less people playing as a result - it's been taking a while to queue up at night and I didn't used to have any problems with that.

Even though I like it a lot better than the first version of the new list, it does feel like there's something still missing - the element of chaos that that NK brought to the old ranked list. A few people suggested replacing NE with NB which I think could bring a little more welcome chaos to the game - since NB is as likely to side with town as it is with mafia. Someone in-game suggested using an "ANY" slot instead of any neutral at all, which could also be fun.

[Cookazoo2]

Alright, after a few games, three in a row of which were Godfather:

• Mafia takes more games than Town. Mafia gains majority really quickly.
• The list would benefit from the removal of the TS or an RT and replacement with a Mayor, to give Town a leg up, or a reversal of the 5 Mafia setup.
• 5 Mafia and an NK is not a good list.
• 6v9 is a bad list when it's 5+1v9, but not that bad when it's 4+1v1v9.
• 10v5 is a really bad list and does not deserve to ever be brought back up, except in TT.

[Cookazoo2]

I do think this new list is more fun to play than the first version where there were 10 town. It's not as addictive as the original ranked list with an NK and I wonder if there are less people playing as a result - it's been taking a while to queue up at night and I didn't used to have any problems with that.

Even though I like it a lot better than the first version of the new list, it does feel like there's something still missing - the element of chaos that that NK brought to the old ranked list. A few people suggested replacing NE with NB which I think could bring a little more welcome chaos to the game - since NB is as likely to side with town as it is with mafia. Someone in-game suggested using an "ANY" slot instead of any neutral at all, which could also be fun.

Problem: NO VAMPS IN RANKED

[orangeandblack5]

10v5 is a really bad list and does not deserve to ever be brought back up, except in TT.

That follows from nothing lol

[Finaleee]

5 mafia is too much and if they have a semi-competent witch it's an instant win

[cob709]

This role list is fine. It's highly reliant on Town skill level. I just finished a game where there were absolutely no quitters, leavers, nor game throwers. Town won because we had incredible coordination between the Jailor and TIs. There was also a Mayor that helped the Jailor unite and coordinate the town.

[MafiaxSK]

>there was also a Mayor

Well there ya go. This list is WAY too sensitive and swingy to mayor. Town needs skill to win. But if they don’t have the right roles, especially if there’s a witch, there’s not much they can do to recover a game if they’ve lost voting power during the day. A lot of games I’ve been in have been Town wins that required skill, some have been Town wins due to leaving mafia, some have been maf wins due to leaving town, and some maf wins that were close calls that required skill, but a lot of games have been “there’s no mayor, all evils vote jailor/transporter” on D5. Stuff like “town can’t vote it’s 4v4” and then the next day “town can’t vote it’s 3v3” gets pretty annoying when you know who’s evil but can’t do anything about it because you lost majority on D3 to ambusher or invest walking into an alerted vet or a leaver or something

Point is that town doesn’t have enough voting power in this list and the presence of a Mayor can make or break the game

[Brilliand]

>there was also a Mayor

Well there ya go. This list is WAY too sensitive and swingy to mayor.

Welp, I guess we need a guaranteed Mayor.

but a lot of games have been “there’s no mayor, all evils vote jailor/transporter” on D5.

On D5 though? D5 is an OK time for the game to come to an end. I'd understand your concern more if you were talking about D3.

[orangeandblack5]

Guaranteed Mayor wouldn't be that bad, given its strength tbh

Just make sure it can be healed by Doctors again or else the game balance goes from "is there a Mayor" to "is there a Bodyguard"

[cob709]

>there was also a Mayor

Well there ya go. This list is WAY too sensitive and swingy to mayor. Town needs skill to win. But if they don’t have the right roles, especially if there’s a witch, there’s not much they can do to recover a game if they’ve lost voting power during the day. A lot of games I’ve been in have been Town wins that required skill, some have been Town wins due to leaving mafia, some have been maf wins due to leaving town, and some maf wins that were close calls that required skill, but a lot of games have been “there’s no mayor, all evils vote jailor/transporter” on D5. Stuff like “town can’t vote it’s 4v4” and then the next day “town can’t vote it’s 3v3” gets pretty annoying when you know who’s evil but can’t do anything about it because you lost majority on D3 to ambusher or invest walking into an alerted vet or a leaver or something

Point is that town doesn’t have enough voting power in this list and the presence of a Mayor can make or break the game

I finished a game yesterday where it came down to a 3v1. Once again, it is not swingy nor sensitive to mayor. Although it CAN give town an extra boost for lynches, it sacrifices an RT slot for TI. In conclusion, the role list is fine. It's just that Town needs to play correctly.

[Matty89190]

How about this:

Jailor
TI
TI
TP
TK
RT
RT
RT
RT
GF
MK
MD
MS
NE
NK

Still opens the mafia up a bit more, but prevents swingy mafs with three of the same RM. Guaranteed MK means either jail/RB workaround with mafioso or potential for 2 KPN with amby.
I liked the idea of a fourth RT, but having it at the expense of NK was bad. NK adds another, necessary dimension to the game, without which it's simply too easy for town - only having to deal with maf keeps them focused and makes games way shorter, in my experience. Instead, have the fourth RT at the expense of the guaranteed TS. TS are town's swingiest roles (not necessarily OP, but most TS roles will be one of the town's biggest assets), and with four RTs, there's decent odds of getting a TS anyway.

[superdog551]

I don't have much to add but I want to give my thoughts so far: Lots of fun, especially when playing mafia. The more I play the less I miss NK. Mafia does seem to have a bit of an advantage over town though, especially with a Witch, and a Mayor can swing the game hugely in favor of town

[Soulshade55r]

How about this:

Jailor
TI
TI
TP
TK
RT
RT
RT
RT
GF
MK
MD
MS
NE
NK

Still opens the mafia up a bit more, but prevents swingy mafs with three of the same RM. Guaranteed MK means either jail/RB workaround with mafioso or potential for 2 KPN with amby.
I liked the idea of a fourth RT, but having it at the expense of NK was bad. NK adds another, necessary dimension to the game, without which it's simply too easy for town - only having to deal with maf keeps them focused and makes games way shorter, in my experience. Instead, have the fourth RT at the expense of the guaranteed TS. TS are town's swingiest roles (not necessarily OP, but most TS roles will be one of the town's biggest assets), and with four RTs, there's decent odds of getting a TS anyway.

No Rm means once Ms or Md is revealed you can't really make argues like x was forged or y was framed or that the escort is consort ect. once that player is dead or Revealed that they are maf

[OldGoldie]

I think it plays fine, but it'll kInda be sad not being able to play NK in a balanced mode. I know there's all any but that's chaotic, and classic only has SK.

[WarlockedHolmes]

The game is not as interesting without more neutral roles, especially without NK. As I mentioned in my previous feedback, it is surprising and very disappointing that NK was removed, particularly right after the NK roles were buffed. There's a reason the mafia lobby in the Coven version is empty all the time.

Perhaps you could drop the 5th mafia role and replace it with an Any role? That way there's an opportunity for additional roles.

[Ezradekezra]

The game is not as interesting without more neutral roles, especially without NK. As I mentioned in my previous feedback, it is surprising and very disappointing that NK was removed, particularly right after the NK roles were buffed. There's a reason the mafia lobby in the Coven version is empty all the time.

Perhaps you could drop the 5th mafia role and replace it with an Any role? That way there's an opportunity for additional roles.

Adding an Any slot to Ranked takes all of the flaws of each possible slot and combines them, with the added issue that its ability to go in literally any direction meaning that the role that ends up appearing in the Any slot is likely to determine the outcome of the game.

If you're looking for neutral roles, try the chaos modes. All of them except for CTT feature at least one neutral role.