Sandcastles wrote:I just don't understand why Neutral Killing would be removed from the list. It just got buffed a couple of months ago. Evils were already quick to give up before and now there are more town and less evils which doesn't help at all. I like ambusher and all but having GF as the only killer with no NK give town more time to confirm themselves and Mafia can be completely stopped by any Jailor or Escort finding GF and just hanging until they win. If ambushers could visit mafia this would be less of a problem (make it happen) but being jailed is just game over. The only strat I can see being viable for mafia in this list is simply not always going for a kill which again just gives town more time to confirm each other.
Soulshade55r wrote:Sandcastles wrote:I just don't understand why Neutral Killing would be removed from the list. It just got buffed a couple of months ago. Evils were already quick to give up before and now there are more town and less evils which doesn't help at all. I like ambusher and all but having GF as the only killer with no NK give town more time to confirm themselves and Mafia can be completely stopped by any Jailor or Escort finding GF and just hanging until they win. If ambushers could visit mafia this would be less of a problem (make it happen) but being jailed is just game over. The only strat I can see being viable for mafia in this list is simply not always going for a kill which again just gives town more time to confirm each other.
Neutral killing is incredibly bad for a ranked role list imo.
But even so 10v5 with a less reliable source of kpn (ambusher) kinda hurts mafia quite a bit
We definitely need to keep the list at the 9v6 format though.
shapesifter13 wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:Sandcastles wrote:I just don't understand why Neutral Killing would be removed from the list. It just got buffed a couple of months ago. Evils were already quick to give up before and now there are more town and less evils which doesn't help at all. I like ambusher and all but having GF as the only killer with no NK give town more time to confirm themselves and Mafia can be completely stopped by any Jailor or Escort finding GF and just hanging until they win. If ambushers could visit mafia this would be less of a problem (make it happen) but being jailed is just game over. The only strat I can see being viable for mafia in this list is simply not always going for a kill which again just gives town more time to confirm each other.
Neutral killing is incredibly bad for a ranked role list imo.
But even so 10v5 with a less reliable source of kpn (ambusher) kinda hurts mafia quite a bit
We definitely need to keep the list at the 9v6 format though.
I can totally see the argument for 9v6 against 10v5.
DFrenchBoi wrote:
NE, while often helpful to evils, can be made a useless evil. If an executioner gets a confirmed target such as a lookout finding 3 TPs correctly or a transporter who transported the mayor and another confirmed townie, they are useless.
Soulshade55r wrote:shapesifter13 wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:Sandcastles wrote:I just don't understand why Neutral Killing would be removed from the list. It just got buffed a couple of months ago. Evils were already quick to give up before and now there are more town and less evils which doesn't help at all. I like ambusher and all but having GF as the only killer with no NK give town more time to confirm themselves and Mafia can be completely stopped by any Jailor or Escort finding GF and just hanging until they win. If ambushers could visit mafia this would be less of a problem (make it happen) but being jailed is just game over. The only strat I can see being viable for mafia in this list is simply not always going for a kill which again just gives town more time to confirm each other.
Neutral killing is incredibly bad for a ranked role list imo.
But even so 10v5 with a less reliable source of kpn (ambusher) kinda hurts mafia quite a bit
We definitely need to keep the list at the 9v6 format though.
I can totally see the argument for 9v6 against 10v5.
I definitely feel like this role list has potential to be way more skill based (Instead of one side getting disproportionatly killed by nk) I think the problem is town is at of big advantage even more so now, Ambusher being guaranteed is decent because it still keeps the extra kpn, the problem is ambusher is a very easily outed role.
But lets keep in mind this is just experimental rn and changes can happen
Sandcastles wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:shapesifter13 wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:Sandcastles wrote:I just don't understand why Neutral Killing would be removed from the list. It just got buffed a couple of months ago. Evils were already quick to give up before and now there are more town and less evils which doesn't help at all. I like ambusher and all but having GF as the only killer with no NK give town more time to confirm themselves and Mafia can be completely stopped by any Jailor or Escort finding GF and just hanging until they win. If ambushers could visit mafia this would be less of a problem (make it happen) but being jailed is just game over. The only strat I can see being viable for mafia in this list is simply not always going for a kill which again just gives town more time to confirm each other.
Neutral killing is incredibly bad for a ranked role list imo.
But even so 10v5 with a less reliable source of kpn (ambusher) kinda hurts mafia quite a bit
We definitely need to keep the list at the 9v6 format though.
I can totally see the argument for 9v6 against 10v5.
I definitely feel like this role list has potential to be way more skill based (Instead of one side getting disproportionatly killed by nk) I think the problem is town is at of big advantage even more so now, Ambusher being guaranteed is decent because it still keeps the extra kpn, the problem is ambusher is a very easily outed role.
But lets keep in mind this is just experimental rn and changes can happen
The role list felt better as 9v6 rather than 10v5 but if the town slot is given over to mafia they will have too much voting power after just a couple of kills. If the slot is given to Neutral benign we'd run into old amne problems. If its given to neutral evil the chaos caused by 2 potential witches or jesters could just make things worse than if it was NK.
Soulshade55r wrote:Sandcastles wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:shapesifter13 wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:Sandcastles wrote:I just don't understand why Neutral Killing would be removed from the list. It just got buffed a couple of months ago. Evils were already quick to give up before and now there are more town and less evils which doesn't help at all. I like ambusher and all but having GF as the only killer with no NK give town more time to confirm themselves and Mafia can be completely stopped by any Jailor or Escort finding GF and just hanging until they win. If ambushers could visit mafia this would be less of a problem (make it happen) but being jailed is just game over. The only strat I can see being viable for mafia in this list is simply not always going for a kill which again just gives town more time to confirm each other.
Neutral killing is incredibly bad for a ranked role list imo.
But even so 10v5 with a less reliable source of kpn (ambusher) kinda hurts mafia quite a bit
We definitely need to keep the list at the 9v6 format though.
I can totally see the argument for 9v6 against 10v5.
I definitely feel like this role list has potential to be way more skill based (Instead of one side getting disproportionatly killed by nk) I think the problem is town is at of big advantage even more so now, Ambusher being guaranteed is decent because it still keeps the extra kpn, the problem is ambusher is a very easily outed role.
But lets keep in mind this is just experimental rn and changes can happen
The role list felt better as 9v6 rather than 10v5 but if the town slot is given over to mafia they will have too much voting power after just a couple of kills. If the slot is given to Neutral benign we'd run into old amne problems. If its given to neutral evil the chaos caused by 2 potential witches or jesters could just make things worse than if it was NK.
I do think nks vote with mafia at least in "high elo games" Nks/will generally not vote at a 6v6 scenario so I don't think mafia having a high voting power would be too much of a problem
I'd honestly say two potential nes would be more balanced then Nk but that's just how I view it.
My main concern about NB is amne being able to remember mayor and Jailor now other then that I don't think NB has a problem.
Sandcastles wrote:and Guardian Angel move into the base game to make the role more engaging.
TheHats wrote:NK was a role that took alot of SKILL to win. while some would say "its RNG". Not really, you need a good claim and to get "confirmed" early and you're set.
Ezradekezra wrote:Sandcastles wrote:and Guardian Angel move into the base game to make the role more engaging.
- How would simply moving the role into the base game make it more engaging?
- Moving Coven roles into the base game devalues the Coven expansion, further killing it. If anything, more Coven-exclusive roles should be added, since Hypno and Amb escaping into the base game and Retri being reworked to be a Town Necro already takes enough away from the expansion.
TheHats wrote:I played a game of ranked practice and it ended too quickly, in this game escort kept RBING the GF and mafia got 1 kill the whole game, we lynch and exe the 4 mafia and its over by day 4. NK is fun to play and should stay, and Ambusher is a pointless role that imo should have been kept in coven, NEVER moved into a guaranteed slot.
If you ambush TPLO, you're dead
if you ambush TI target, if 2 TI's exist you're probably also dead
If you randomly ambush, you won't kill anyone, or will run into silent vet
If you ambush a role that more than *exactly 1* person visits, you are dead.
On average amb will get one kill per game, while NK will get far more.
Also the fact it is 10v5 is just dumb as well.
I had a DM conversation with shapesifter, who explained why this is happening a bit, but still these changes need some work. while the old ranked list wasn't perfect, It took alot of skill.
Non-Skill parts of this role list: If the escort catches the GF *randomly N1* and continues to RB, mafia is dead
Ambusher is total RNG or reverse BG.
10v5 means any situation where mafia .as majority is now far rarer.
NK was a role that took alot of SKILL to win. while some would say "its RNG". Not really, you need a good claim and to get "confirmed" early and you're set.
These changes reduce the skill required to win to just RNG. I also don't understand why retri, LO, etc. were gutted to nerf town, yet town is buffed by far more than those changes nerfed.
Perspective: 10v5. maf kills someone, 9v5. maf kills someone else.8v5.Very low chance of ambusher randomly hitting someone.
or 9v6. maf kills someone. 8v6. Ret resses and maf kills someone else. 8v6. SK and WW add kills. Arso makes the game more interesting later.
These changes are basically a "free ressed townie" in the form of a new one added.
Overall, there is absolutely no need to change things for the sake of changing things. As they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Moving Coven roles into the base game devalues the Coven expansion
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