Patch 3.3.1b Update New Ranked Role List!

[FerretBandit]

Here's my proposed role list if you won't let there be 5 mafia

Jailor
TI
TI
TK
TP
TS
RT
RT
RT

Godfather
Mafioso
Ambusher
RM

Witch
Jester

Neutrals should NOT be randomized -- the difference between witches and exes/jesters is too big to be fair enough for ranked. Also, if this is too mafsided, I'm fine with replacing Ambusher with RM, but honestly I think that "fairness" in Ranked is randomized town roles and non randomized evil roles.

[Soulshade55r]

Here's my proposed role list if you won't let there be 5 mafia

Jailor
TI
TI
TK
TP
TS
RT
RT
RT

Godfather
Mafioso
Ambusher
RM

Witch
Jester

Neutrals should NOT be randomized -- the difference between witches and exes/jesters is too big to be fair enough for ranked. Also, if this is too mafsided, I'm fine with replacing Ambusher with RM, but honestly I think that "fairness" in Ranked is randomized town roles and non randomized evil roles.

One Rm is kind of bad especially when that rm is revealed generally will make escorts even more confirmable, I was framed ect arguements cannot be made.

I get it that mafioso needs to exist I feel like that's the main problem with a confirmed ambusher

I dunno tbh 5 mafia setup seems fine to me rn, Jester isn't really a great role in my humble opinion but I like the witch slot.

Edit:

I'll just post what I'd like to see ranked be like.

Jailor
Mayor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Ambusher
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Witch

First thing to note mayor is guaranteed now because I feel like him randomly spawning has way too much towm swing to combat this there's no TS Outside Random town, Also Tk is only in the rt shows as Jailor serves the Tk purpose well enough.

I feel like 4 RTs 2 Tis and 1 Tp for claim space is pretty good compermise for the mayor slot, also town would keep their votes vs mafia if things got bad.

5 mafia & Witch are very strong but I think they will still be beaten by town a lot I think it will be pretty close to 40/60 favouring town

[LightYagamiKun]

Neutral Killing was the best part of Ranked. It just got buffed so I don't see why you would decide to get ridof it. Without it it's nearly impossible for evils to win, and makes invests kind of OP.

[MaybeLaterx]

I see a lot of people talking about balance without any real regard for 'fun'.

For me I don't really enjoy playing NK, so I'd be happy to never roll WW again; though it does feel a bit of a shame to have done all those roles + reworks to then put them into alternative gamemodes only, like the NB and chaos roles. But perhaps it's a necessary evil - those roles have serious implications for balance and some (Surv, Vamp) haven't been considered much fun.

If GF is prevented from killing, having enough plausible reasons is important - hypnotist faking an attack, a possible immune role being hit, jails and rb's seem to be enough to work in any direction.
I think the Ambusher role being either Ambusher or Mafioso (MK) would potentially alleviate this too. Some ambushers have bad luck and might not appear for a long time, which might imply the existence of a Mafioso instead. I can see why BMG got rid of Mafioso - having someone else play your role for you is very boring, and (in my games at least) GF + Mafioso constantly changing targets makes the RMs jobs a nightmare (ever forged a living player?).

I think 5 mafia is possibly a bit overkill. Worth considering that the more visiting maf there are, the stronger spy becomes - Mafioso swapped for Ambusher already pushes this number to 4 from 3, and potentially to 5 with more mafia.

I enjoy NE roles and I think they are the most likely to need to lie to win - particularly exe and jest (though some jesters give up and start yelling lynch me lynch me). I think those roles are very in the spirit of the game and would be sad to see them go - even when there is no jest in a particular game, you have to play around the existence of one when voting, and I like the effect the role has on the game even when he isn't there.
I think two random NE slots could be a lot of fun. That's enough natural immunity for maf to bluff hitting an NE. Teaming up among NEs would be a more common thing if they can pull it off. Two witches would be chaos - I don't know what the interactions are there, but we'd all have to learn them, which might make up for the fact that we're losing so much NK need-to-know info. I think Exes should always have different targets, tho (perhaps this is already the case in All Any).

I hear people say witch is very mafia favoured. I would be happy with a Witch + NE combo too, if that helps with balance some more.

tl;dr:
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Killing
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Evil
Neutral Evil

[Soulshade55r]

5 mafia isn't really over kill to complicate for no nk imo

[MafiaxSK]

I see a lot of people talking about balance without any real regard for 'fun'.

For me I don't really enjoy playing NK, so I'd be happy to never roll WW again; though it does feel a bit of a shame to have done all those roles + reworks to then put them into alternative gamemodes only, like the NB and chaos roles. But perhaps it's a necessary evil - those roles have serious implications for balance and some (Surv, Vamp) haven't been considered much fun.

If GF is prevented from killing, having enough plausible reasons is important - hypnotist faking an attack, a possible immune role being hit, jails and rb's seem to be enough to work in any direction.
I think the Ambusher role being either Ambusher or Mafioso (MK) would potentially alleviate this too. Some ambushers have bad luck and might not appear for a long time, which might imply the existence of a Mafioso instead. I can see why BMG got rid of Mafioso - having someone else play your role for you is very boring, and (in my games at least) GF + Mafioso constantly changing targets makes the RMs jobs a nightmare (ever forged a living player?).

I think 5 mafia is possibly a bit overkill. Worth considering that the more visiting maf there are, the stronger spy becomes - Mafioso swapped for Ambusher already pushes this number to 4 from 3, and potentially to 5 with more mafia.

I enjoy NE roles and I think they are the most likely to need to lie to win - particularly exe and jest (though some jesters give up and start yelling lynch me lynch me). I think those roles are very in the spirit of the game and would be sad to see them go - even when there is no jest in a particular game, you have to play around the existence of one when voting, and I like the effect the role has on the game even when he isn't there.
I think two random NE slots could be a lot of fun. That's enough natural immunity for maf to bluff hitting an NE. Teaming up among NEs would be a more common thing if they can pull it off. Two witches would be chaos - I don't know what the interactions are there, but we'd all have to learn them, which might make up for the fact that we're losing so much NK need-to-know info. I think Exes should always have different targets, tho (perhaps this is already the case in All Any).

I hear people say witch is very mafia favoured. I would be happy with a Witch + NE combo too, if that helps with balance some more.

tl;dr:
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Killing
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Evil
Neutral Evil

All of this exactly. Having fun should still be the point of the game, ranked or otherwise. Having a MK slot that can be mafioso or ambusher is a good solution. Two NES might be a bit much though since 4/9 times there will be no witch which basically means up to two jesters depending on when the exe’s target dies. It could work but Witch + NE is also an option

[cutemeg]

WAY too unbalanced, town are at a huge advantage.

[MafiaxSK]

In order for the competition to be fun, the games that arise from role list itself need to be fun. It isn’t fun to play games that drag for days with no kills at night, or games that are too town-sided, or games where half the RTs and the TS are mediums or transporters. Besides, ranked was always about being able to play skillfully under a variety of initial conditions within the role list. Now the strategy is basically “don’t be dumb as town and you’ll win”

[DiamondRanger8]

Neutral Killing was the best part about ranked tbh. It makes it so Jailor can actually be killed by day 2, and if there's a doctor for TP, the Werewolf could destroy the chain. If Serial killer is jailed, they can kill the Jailor. Same with Werewolf. Unless there's gonna be a new Neutral Evil role or Mafia role that can counter Jailor meta at all, NK needs to stay.

[Soulshade55r]

Neutral Killing was the best part about ranked tbh. It makes it so Jailor can actually be killed by day 2, and if there's a doctor for TP, the Werewolf could destroy the chain. If Serial killer is jailed, they can kill the Jailor. Same with Werewolf. Unless there's gonna be a new Neutral Evil role or Mafia role that can counter Jailor meta at all, NK needs to stay.

As much as I'm not really a fan of nk I do think mafia needs a way to counter nks

[RiceHatMan]

How about we restore Neutral Killing to their status before their buffs, and make their new win condition "See the Town lose"? This way, instead of evils needing to bring down Town and their evil rival afterward, the game automatically gives the win to both the NK and Mafia. This is also a good replacement for the problem with Neutral Evils, since some of them are too Town-sided. Neutral Killing would still have that "alone" style of gameplay, which some find is fun, since they aren't in a informed minority and don't have the same role-finding capabilities as Witch.

[MafiaxSK]

If they got rid of the NK buffs I’d be so upset. And the goal change would remove the ability for dead arsos or SKs to win with winning arsos or SKs in AA, which is a feature I really like. It’s so nice to get a clutch win for an NK that stayed and have them sing your praises in the dead chat after the game, or to get a surprise win because there was secretly another NK of your kind all along.

[Soulshade55r]

How about we restore Neutral Killing to their status before their buffs, and make their new win condition "See the Town lose"? This way, instead of evils needing to bring down Town and their evil rival afterward, the game automatically gives the win to both the NK and Mafia. This is also a good replacement for the problem with Neutral Evils, since some of them are too Town-sided. Neutral Killing would still have that "alone" style of gameplay, which some find is fun, since they aren't in a informed minority and don't have the same role-finding capabilities as Witch.

Would be intresting but powerful I doubt nks would get style of rework

[RiceHatMan]

If they got rid of the NK buffs I’d be so upset. And the goal change would remove the ability for dead arsos or SKs to win with winning arsos or SKs in AA, which is a feature I really like. It’s so nice to get a clutch win for an NK that stayed and have them sing your praises in the dead chat after the game, or to get a surprise win because there was secretly another NK of your kind all along.

It's "See the Town lose", not "Live to see the Town lose". So instead, it would be all the NKs celebrating instead of that one Arsonist that got hanged day 1.

[Brilliand]

It isn’t fun to play games that drag for days with no kills at night

It is if the daytime chat is challenging for all sides.

[Soulshade55r]

Neutral Killing was the best part about ranked tbh. It makes it so Jailor can actually be killed by day 2, and if there's a doctor for TP, the Werewolf could destroy the chain. If Serial killer is jailed, they can kill the Jailor. Same with Werewolf. Unless there's gonna be a new Neutral Evil role or Mafia role that can counter Jailor meta at all, NK needs to stay.

there does not need to be such a drastic inclusion in order to solve the issue you're presenting, nor is NK even a particularly good solution to the issue you're presenting given none of the NKs can consistently prevent the jailor meta without often significantly reducing their chances of winning

giving mafia strongman shot/s (attacks that ignore protection) and ninja shot/s (attacks that lookout cannot detect) would be a simple solution that would be just as if not more effective, as well as not being drastic and not bringing significant downsides like NK does

I agree so much with this

[MafiaxSK]

If they got rid of the NK buffs I’d be so upset. And the goal change would remove the ability for dead arsos or SKs to win with winning arsos or SKs in AA, which is a feature I really like. It’s so nice to get a clutch win for an NK that stayed and have them sing your praises in the dead chat after the game, or to get a surprise win because there was secretly another NK of your kind all along.

It's "See the Town lose", not "Live to see the Town lose". So instead, it would be all the NKs celebrating instead of that one Arsonist that got hanged day 1.

What’s the difference between “see the town lose” and “live to see the town lose”? Are you saying that if town loses even if there are no NK alive, the NK still win? That doesn’t make sense

[lemonader666]

If they got rid of the NK buffs I’d be so upset. And the goal change would remove the ability for dead arsos or SKs to win with winning arsos or SKs in AA, which is a feature I really like. It’s so nice to get a clutch win for an NK that stayed and have them sing your praises in the dead chat after the game, or to get a surprise win because there was secretly another NK of your kind all along.

It's "See the Town lose", not "Live to see the Town lose". So instead, it would be all the NKs celebrating instead of that one Arsonist that got hanged day 1.

What’s the difference between “see the town lose” and “live to see the town lose”? Are you saying that if town loses even if there are no NK alive, the NK still win? That doesn’t make sense

"See the Town lose" means you win regardless if you're dead or alive as long as Town loses.

[Soulshade55r]

#Tatical mafia :]

Honestly thinking about it We need tactical mafia so badly at this point so Mafioso isn't forced into every role list

[lemonader666]

#Tatical mafia :]

Honestly thinking about it We need tactical mafia so badly at this point so Mafioso isn't forced into every role list

Mafioso could get strongman/ninja imo, or get turned into FM's version of mafioso

[Ezradekezra]

Tactical Mafia might be hard to implement in ToS, where night is only around 30 seconds long. I'm not sure about how good of an idea it is.

[Soulshade55r]

#Tatical mafia :]

Honestly thinking about it We need tactical mafia so badly at this point so Mafioso isn't forced into every role list

Mafioso could get strongman/ninja imo, or get turned into FM's version of mafioso

So lets say he can "shadow" a Mafia member or select a dead player during the night, then give him a 1 Shot Ninja day ability if he's doing the factional Kill.

Yeah I'd like something like that I don't expect Tactical mafia will get implemented (Def not anytime soon) but I can hold on to my dreams especially for something like a Season 6 or 7.

Currently I'm making a thread about a Ideal role list and balance changes we can make to ranked that will solve a lot issues.

Edit:
I think we could make mafia vote during the day for the factional Killer, If the FK gets jailed the second most voted will become it; No voting or a tie breaker will default to a player getting the factional Kill based on mafia role Priority.

Edit 2:
Thinking about it we could even let the factional killer perform their normal action, I can see maybe that it might be a problem with Janitor and forger

[Brilliand]

Tactical Mafia might be hard to implement in ToS, where night is only around 30 seconds long. I'm not sure about how good of an idea it is.

It's two button clicks instead of one (in the version Kirize proposed anyway). That's not enough to cause a problem.

[Soulshade55r]

Tactical Mafia might be hard to implement in ToS, where night is only around 30 seconds long. I'm not sure about how good of an idea it is.

It's two button clicks instead of one (in the version Kirize proposed anyway). That's not enough to cause a problem.

Is their a link to this?

Honestly Thinking about it the best way would be a day vote but factional Killer can use their normal ability.

[lemonader666]

Tactical Mafia might be hard to implement in ToS, where night is only around 30 seconds long. I'm not sure about how good of an idea it is.

It's two button clicks instead of one (in the version Kirize proposed anyway). That's not enough to cause a problem.

Is their a link to this?

Honestly Thinking about it the best way would be a day vote but factional Killer can use their normal ability.

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