Patch 3.3.1b Update New Ranked Role List!

[OreCreeper]

Let's evaluate the role list.

Jailor - Yeah, sure, why not. It's worked before, and with powerful buffs to their enemies it's harder to do the meta.
TI x2 - Same as last list. Two TI's guaranteed makes for more information.
TP - Happy it's only one TP.
TK - Happy it's only one TK.
TS - TS is too powerful to put two in the same list.
RT x4 - No. This makes Town a 10v5 with a KPN of 1.5. I'm sorry, but this needs to be RT x3, like last list.

GF - More powerful than the Mafioso. Again, I'd recommend that the Mafioso get a 1-time Astral attack to differentiate it from "GF's tissue," but I'm fine with this.
Ambusher - Ambusher is too much of a loose cannon to put in as a guaranteed role. While I get that BMG is trying to prominently feature strong Mafia members, it's just not cutting it for me. Either revert this or make it an MK.
RM x2 - Sure, worked last time.

NE - Neutral Evil has a 33% chance of being "extra mafia member that's literally trans and consig put together," a 33% chance of being "the mafia knows you're scum and won't kill you," and a 33% chance of being "Survivor but their vests are reliant on a Townie." With the removal of multiball in Ranked, Witch suddenly becomes an extra Mafia member, and I'm not OK with that.

Summary?
- Remove 1 RT and replace it with RN.
- Remove Ambusher and replace it with MK.
- Give Vampires their own faction so they don't roll with Random Neutral.

New List:
Jailor
TI - Sheriff, Invest, LO, Spy
TI - Sheriff, Invest, LO, Spy
TP - Doctor, BG
TK - Vigi, Vet
TS - Esc, Trans, Mayor, Ret, Med
RT - Any Town
RT - Any Town
RT - Any Town
Godfather
MK - Mafioso or Ambusher
RM - Any Mafia
RM - Any Mafia
NE - Jester, Witch, Exe
RN - Any Neutral (vampire exempt b/c they'd be a new faction)


Also, BMG...
NK buffs were there to counter Jailor meta and boost evil win rates outside of Mafia. Why'd you remove them for the new list just because Mafia can stand on its own? Mafia is kept in check by the NKs, and by removing them, you give Town an advantage and Mafia an advantage as well.

I'd just like to point out that never has the presence of a random neutral slot or the possibility for an NK to spawn randomly made the game more balanced. I'd argue that having a random-spawning NK is way worse than having a random-spawning Jailor, because the difference between having a NB or NE as the RN and having an NK as the RN is huge and it leans the outcome of the game even more towards the roles that spawn in the game instead of the skill of the players. That being said, the rolelist by the devs does get rid of the NK, which I support. But it's also extremely town sided. I would suggest turning Ambusher into MK, the RMs into Mafia Deception and Mafia Support respectively, and one of the RTs or TIs into an RM. This makes it a 9v6, which is the most balanced imo. Also ambusher and mafioso should definitely be getting buffs, along with maybe a new MK

[Soulshade55r]

Honestly 5 mafia on paper sounds strong but I still think town will win more I'd love to try out 5 mafia and one NE.

I would rather have Two Rms a guaranteed maf, Amb and Gf.

[cob709]

Honestly 5 mafia on paper sounds strong but I still think town will win more I'd love to try out 5 mafia and one NE.

I would rather have Two Rms a guaranteed maf, Amb and Gf.

This might cause Mafia too have too much KPN, but let's give it a shot. Perhaps add an additional Town(Protective) slot so that the extra kills can get somewhat mitigated.

[OreCreeper]

Honestly 5 mafia on paper sounds strong but I still think town will win more I'd love to try out 5 mafia and one NE.

I would rather have Two Rms a guaranteed maf, Amb and Gf.

This might cause Mafia too have too much KPN, but let's give it a shot. Perhaps add an additional Town(Protective) slot so that the extra kills can get somewhat mitigated.

I mean I personally think that works as well, but I'd much rather just have GF, MK, MS, MD, and RM since having 3 confirmed mafia roles is kinda iffy.

[WanderingHero]

Stupid role list.

If town jails or rbs the GF then its pretty much all over.

I played a master rank game as jailor where I was too sleepy to scum read at all and won easily because I jailed the GF over and over again ( he eventually got annoyed and rage quit)

[Jakinator178]

Plain and simple, just replace the ambusher slot with mafia killing.

Also, small suggestion. If the jailor does jail the godfather two consecutive nights, the remaining mafia should have an option to vote on a breakout operation. It would require a unanimous approval from all other members, but it would directly target jailor and end the nonsense of eternally jailing godfather.

[Soulshade55r]

Honestly 5 mafia on paper sounds strong but I still think town will win more I'd love to try out 5 mafia and one NE.

I would rather have Two Rms a guaranteed maf, Amb and Gf.

This might cause Mafia too have too much KPN, but let's give it a shot. Perhaps add an additional Town(Protective) slot so that the extra kills can get somewhat mitigated.

I mean I personally think that works as well, but I'd much rather just have GF, MK, MS, MD, and RM since having 3 confirmed mafia roles is kinda iffy.

Then you have 1confirmed and 3 confirmed role slots

[superdog551]

Not a fan gonna be honest

[Soulshade55r]

Not a fan gonna be honest

Its likely getting changed tbh devs are probably looking into community feedback.

I wouldn't really worry or panic aslong as it does get changed

[cob709]

Not a fan gonna be honest

Its likely getting changed tbh devs are probably looking into community feedback.

I wouldn't really worry or panic aslong as it does get changed

I'm concerned that a lot of people will stop playing because of the new changes.

[Brilliand]

Also, small suggestion. If the jailor does jail the godfather two consecutive nights, the remaining mafia should have an option to vote on a breakout operation. It would require a unanimous approval from all other members, but it would directly target jailor and end the nonsense of eternally jailing godfather.

Sounds too complicated.

I once suggested the extremely simple option of giving the Godfather a button to escape jail under his own power (outing himself as the Godfather), but really Tactical Mafia Kills would be the best solution to this.

[Soulshade55r]

glaring issues that were introduced:

- ambusher existing (introduces swing in the same way veteran and werewolf do)
- probably more town sided than the last role list
- no confirmed mafioso with how mafia kills work in this game is not a good idea

significantly better than the last role list from a competitive standpoint literally just because NK was removed, but this role list is still not good

I mean for consistency this role list is probably amazing

For mafia/Town balance it's god awful

Mafia need something (aka replacing the nk slot with another member or Witch) as Nk favoured Mafia not town, even if nk can kill mafia a lot and be generally a horrible swingy one man army

[PrestonALewis]

I'll paste my explanation that I gave for why NK is at the very least essential for mafia in the proposed changes to the ranked rolelist.

Firstly, not only does it change the new ; old town v evils to 10 v 5 ; 9 v 6

NK as a concept puts pressure on town and forces them to hang early. Without an NK, town has MUCH more time to confirm roles, ESPECIALLY when you decide to add one more townie into the list.

It’s about what NK does for evils in general. In a typical ranked game in the past, when NK is dead and either the mafioso/gf gets hung, it’s a race for the jailor/roleblockers to jail/rb the right person and it’s ggs. This will ALWAYS be the situation without an NK. All roleblockers just got arguably 3x more powerful with this change. Not to mention now if jailor jails GF n1 maf basically lose if they don’t get mafioso as an RM. Not only does not having mafioso as a guaranteed RM make mafia significantly slower at killing, but the elimination of an NK makes town much less pressured to hang early on. N7 and N8's I think will exist in half the games played in ranked, and I think that's unbalanced.

[Finaleee]

i am currently forcing a draw as jailor with town being 4v4 with mafia

[Tislen]

I'm somewhat okay with 5 mafia + NE v. 9 town, I'd prefer NE changed to NB in that case but it's still problematic since NB can side either way. I'd say just make 100% sure you have a mafioso OR make mafioso essentially a worthless role by allowing the mafia as a group to declare who to attack (GF overrides) and one of them attacks at random (or even based on role order).

Just please give Mafioso back. Optimally this role list results in frequent automatic losses for mafia, even forcing them to leave the game to play at all correctly.

[Soulshade55r]

if you want a simple solution along the lines that you're going with this list that would do a good job at rectifying all 3 of the issues i just mentioned

Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Killing
Town Protective
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia Support
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Evil

the Mafia Support slot is there so that mafia has a role slot that is guaranteed to have decent utility, ideally that slot is Consig/Consort/Janitor or something because Blackmailer is not that good but Consig/Consort/Janitor aren't all one subalignment so Mafia Support (Consig/Consort/BMer) is best

an issue with this list especially now with 3 RT and 5 mafia would be that mafia have little claimspace; this can be helped by two things that i can think of: replacing a TI slot with a RT slot, or having a confirmed janitor. the former though comes with the issue of introducing higher variation in town's game-to-game utility, and the latter comes with the issue of solving a problem with a solution that varies largely in effectiveness (e.g if the Janitor dies N1 and doesn't clean then the existence of a confirmed janitor is obviously far less effective in solving the issue at hand than if a Janitor were to get off 3 cleans). however, this latter issue can be solved by giving mafia universal cleans instead of relying on janitor getting off cleans

i think the idea of mafia getting universal cleans would be better than replacing a TI slot with an RT slot (due to the previously mentioned weakness with the latter). 3 universal cleans sounds too powerful for mafia given there are 3 RTs as claimspace for mafia already, so something like 2 universal cleans is probably good

i feel like i'm rambling but tl;dr my idea here would be the role list that i initially stated but with Mafia getting 2 universal cleans and Janitor not rolling in RM in this mode (due to mafia getting 2 universal cleans). personally i think these changes would help a lot, the role list is still not what i would consider ideal (i still have other issues such as NE slot being swingy, etc etc) but it seems decent considering the constraints that i know yall (the devs) probably have on what you want and don't want for ranked

I don't think blackmailer is bad infact one blackmailer is generally better then consig.

I dunno I feel like Ambusher should be guaranteed if theirs no nk but also mafioso and gf need to be in but that creates a problem with mafia verity. (god now would be a good time to implement tatical mafia I definitely hope this option is considered at some point I know probably this season is asking to much but It would really fix a lot of the game).

6v9 (5 maf) seems powerful but keep in mind this is at the negative of one less death (that usually favours mafia, but can notably screw them over).

[lemonader666]

Jailor
TI
TI
TP
TS
TK
RT
RT
RT
Godfather
Mafioso/Ambusher
RM
RM
Witch
Executioner/Jester
bumping this because I think it has potential
Although, I'm amazed that neither strongman (protection-piercing) + ninja/astral nor a jailor nerf to make it equal to vig has been implemented, considering the fact that either of them would've been a more elegant solution to these town shenanigans.
Also still no tactical killing lmao

[MysticMismagius]

I don't think blackmailer is bad infact one blackmailer is generally better then consig.

I dunno I feel like Ambusher should be guaranteed if theirs no nk but also mafioso and gf need to be in but that creates a problem with mafia verity. (god now would be a good time to implement tatical mafia I definitely hope this option is considered at some point I know probably this season is asking to much but It would really fix a lot of the game).

6v9 (5 maf) seems powerful but keep in mind this is at the negative of one less death (that usually favours mafia, but can notably screw them over).

Well if there's 5 mafia, and a confirmed GF, Mafioso, and Ambusher slot, that makes 2 RM slots. This is the same as in the previous role list, so there wouldn't be any less variety of mafia roles in that instance.

[yeeZySeason]

Wow you guys are clueless. Glad you perma'd me so I didn't have to experience this role list.

[DiamondRanger8]

I made a new roles list as a separate post before I found out about this thread, so I decided to post it here. I decided to make it so Town still has a fine chance of winning, while Evils have a much better chance of winning than before (Especially Neutral Killings). I don't like that Neutral Killing has been removed, as it makes the games much less interesting imo, and NKs indirectly helped the Mafia before by killing off Town, even if in the late game they're directly working against each other. This is my list:

Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Killing
Town Protective
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Killing
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Benign/Random Neutral (Random Neutral would only be a possibility if Vampire is excluded)
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil

If Town is to underpowered in this list, the Town Support could be changed to Mayor to give Town a bigger majority. If the reason Neutral Killing was removed is because Neutral Killings are to powerful, NK could be replaced with Serial Killer. If the reason is because Neutral Killings don't win enough, Arsonist could be added instead, and in Coven Juggernaut or Plaguebearer. Another option is instead of Neutral Evil, it's just witch, to help out the Mafia some more. Neutral Killing could also be removed for just random Neutral, with the slot that could be Neutral Benign or Random Neutral depending on which one has more support could be removed for a Random Town, but this would make it so half the time Town has to deal with ANOTHER Neutral Killing or a possible second Witch to deal with, or a possible ally.

[DiamondRanger8]

Wow you guys are clueless. Glad you perma'd me so I didn't have to experience this role list.

Someone's salty lmao

[Royee]

I decided to make it so Town still has a fine chance of winning

wat

[MafiaxSK]

Having 5 mafia to balanced the ranked list would have terrible implications for the rest of the game. Coven (and probably vampires) would also need to be able to have 5 members to balance CAA. It would also make regular AA way too mafia sided as well, although tbh I don’t know how the probabilities are calculated there. Usually in AA the mafia will have 3-4 members so I’m assuming the algorithm favors mafia having more members. Adding tactical mafia isn’t a realistic option right now since a big update just came out, and some people still don’t know how the retri or arso changes work, much less the recent random mafia buffs.

[Brilliand]

Having 5 mafia to balanced the ranked list would have terrible implications for the rest of the game. Coven (and probably vampires) would also need to be able to have 5 members to balance CAA. It would also make regular AA way too mafia sided as well, although tbh I don’t know how the probabilities are calculated there. Usually in AA the mafia will have 3-4 members so I’m assuming the algorithm favors mafia having more members.

You have a point, but... odd as it might be... there isn't actually anything preventing BMG from putting a 5-man mafia in Ranked while continuing to forbid it in other modes.

[Soulshade55r]

Having 5 mafia to balanced the ranked list would have terrible implications for the rest of the game. Coven (and probably vampires) would also need to be able to have 5 members to balance CAA. It would also make regular AA way too mafia sided as well, although tbh I don’t know how the probabilities are calculated there. Usually in AA the mafia will have 3-4 members so I’m assuming the algorithm favors mafia having more members.

You have a point, but... odd as it might be... there isn't actually anything preventing BMG from putting a 5-man mafia in Ranked while continuing to forbid it in other modes.

Simple solution

Make it so there's no restriction but only 4 mafia can spawn in the any slot so all any isn't effected