Patch 3.3.1b Update New Ranked Role List!

[shapesifter13]

Hey Townies!

Based on the the thread we posted about potential new role lists it seemed that players liked the idea of a Town V Mafia role list with no Neutral killing role. We feel that this kind of role list could be a refreshing change of pace, and address some issues players had with how ranked as a whole functioned. We will be posting a new ranked role list soon! The below list is what will be posted:

Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Killing
Town Protective
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Ambusher
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Evil

Please feel free to give your feedback on the changes to help us improve the list over the coming weeks!

[Yosh1123]

i like how there's a ne without it being confirmed witch

[Ezradekezra]

So *that's* what the server restart was about.

I'll post my thoughts after playing a few games.

[cenzler]

Dude. This new role list sucks. Without a mafioso, mafia team gets fucked over if GF is rbed or jailed... And also, no NK??? Mafia team gets no help.

[thekiller12345]

I suggest removing a rt for a mafioso because if gf gets rbed and there’s no mafioso, mafia loses. I also suggesting buffing ambusher so people don’t see ambusher when they visit ambushers targget

[Ezradekezra]

Game 1 was a Town win, but the Mafia also played terribly so it might just be a coincidence.

Game 2 would've been a Mafia win, but the GF decided to throw and went afk right as we reached an evil majority and it ended in a draw.

People like to complain about roleblockers screwing over the GF, but it's really not an issue. I feel like one of the Town slots could be replaced with a Neutral (Benign) slot, though.

I'll add more stories later.

[Soulshade55r]

I wouldn't mind Ambusher being replaced with a mafia killing slot as I think rbs are too power.

I imagine 4 maf and ne would be very weak compared to the old role list, might sound too much but trying out 5 mafia and 1 ne or even nb might be better as the old Role list had 9 town and was decently town sided

[DFrenchBoi]

I'm not sure if SwampRabbit, who hosted a set of competitive games with a proposed role list, has shared the information from those games, but you don't need data to understand this role list is unbalanced.

The current ranked role list, assuming that no mafia members died night 1 and the NK can get a kill indepent from the mafia on night 2, means that if the town mislynches on day 2 most of the time they will lose the game. Night 1 mafia kill with day 2 mislynch, 7-6 going into night 2. Assuming no evil role block (witch/consort) the jailor executes the confirmed evil, the mafia gets a kill, and the NK gets a kill. Day 3 it is 5-5, the town loses assuming no evils vote against each other.

In this new role list, let's say the ambusher can kill every other night. Night 1, 1 town death. Day 2, evils get their mislynch. Night 2, even if the NE is switched to a confirmed witch and the jailor cannot execute, evils getting 2 kills is still not enough for majority. Taking that along with the fact that evil mislynches often out more than 1 evil assuming the town can read votes, Town just wins even if evils get the day 2 mislynch. This changes the game from evils' ability to force a mislynch and towards evils getting lucky with an ambusher getting a kill on night 1 AND night 2. Evils winning should not be based on the ambusher visiting the correct house 2 nights in a row.

NE, while often helpful to evils, can be made a useless evil. If an executioner gets a confirmed target such as a lookout finding 3 TPs correctly or a transporter who transported the mayor and another confirmed townie, they are useless. This is why many suggest making the witch a confirmed role. Witches boost evil win rates, as they can effectively role block any townie with a night ability (except roles that witching doesn't matter) and can also cause even more chaos. If they witch a doctor into an attacked target, the doctor won't know what happened and the witch could become falsely confirmed since they claimed a heal first and nobody else is claiming that heal. They can make an escort look like a consort by witching them onto a confirmed townie, they can witch TIs into a veteran, and, of course, witch vigis into townies to cause 2 town deaths. This role list would make more sense with a guaranteed witch instead of an NE, but as stated earlier, town just wouldn't be under enough pressure for evils to have a good chance of winning.

If you want to remove NK from ranked, there should be two NEs. One of these should probably be a guaranteed witch. A role list which was found to give evils about 50% win rate in a competitive environment was

Jailor
Vig
TI
TS
TK
TP
RT
RT
RT
GF
Mafioso
Ambusher
Random Mafia
Witch
Random NE

The confirmed vigilante acts as a double edged sword, and could be removed for another RT if it was too unbalanced. On the one hand, it allows the town to clutch an otherwise unwinnable situation by giving town a kill on an evil every night. On the other hand, if the witch finds the vigilante then evils chances of winning are significantly boosted. While a lot of players already do not use jailor meta, many still complain about it and look for ways to "kill" jailor meta. Giving a guaranteed witch with 6 evils would accomplish this. In TT, the witch can be found by a lookout and also the witch controlling the jailor from executing a mafia on night 2 doesn't even give evils majority unless a vigilante is TT, vigilante mis-shoots, or an ambusher kills both night 1 and night 2. Both mafioso and godfather make both mafia killings (excluding ambusher) very unlikely to be role blocked on night 1. Ambusher taking away a random mafia slot gives mafia the extra kill it needs. Fewer random mafia slots are necessary since there is less need of a consort due to guaranteed witch, and the NE can deceive the town along with a potential MD spawn as the RM.

Please roll back this role list. It is not balanced.

[Sandcastles]

I just don't understand why Neutral Killing would be removed from the list. It just got buffed a couple of months ago. Evils were already quick to give up before and now there are more town and less evils which doesn't help at all. I like ambusher and all but having GF as the only killer with no NK give town more time to confirm themselves and Mafia can be completely stopped by any Jailor or Escort finding GF and just hanging until they win. If ambushers could visit mafia this would be less of a problem (make it happen) but being jailed is just game over. The only strat I can see being viable for mafia in this list is simply not always going for a kill which again just gives town more time to confirm each other.

[Soulshade55r]

I just don't understand why Neutral Killing would be removed from the list. It just got buffed a couple of months ago. Evils were already quick to give up before and now there are more town and less evils which doesn't help at all. I like ambusher and all but having GF as the only killer with no NK give town more time to confirm themselves and Mafia can be completely stopped by any Jailor or Escort finding GF and just hanging until they win. If ambushers could visit mafia this would be less of a problem (make it happen) but being jailed is just game over. The only strat I can see being viable for mafia in this list is simply not always going for a kill which again just gives town more time to confirm each other.

Neutral killing is incredibly bad for a ranked role list imo.

But even so 10v5 with a less reliable source of kpn (ambusher) kinda hurts mafia quite a bit

We definitely need to keep the list at the 9v6 format though.

[shapesifter13]

I just don't understand why Neutral Killing would be removed from the list. It just got buffed a couple of months ago. Evils were already quick to give up before and now there are more town and less evils which doesn't help at all. I like ambusher and all but having GF as the only killer with no NK give town more time to confirm themselves and Mafia can be completely stopped by any Jailor or Escort finding GF and just hanging until they win. If ambushers could visit mafia this would be less of a problem (make it happen) but being jailed is just game over. The only strat I can see being viable for mafia in this list is simply not always going for a kill which again just gives town more time to confirm each other.

Neutral killing is incredibly bad for a ranked role list imo.

But even so 10v5 with a less reliable source of kpn (ambusher) kinda hurts mafia quite a bit

We definitely need to keep the list at the 9v6 format though.

I can totally see the argument for 9v6 against 10v5.

[Ezradekezra]

Based on the few games I've played so far, I'd like to recommend something along the lines of this for the next list to test:
Spoiler: Jailor
Town (Investigative)
Town (Protective)
Town (Support)
Town (Killing)
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Ambusher
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral (Benign)
Neutral (Evil)
I feel like the problem with a lack of a Mafioso is a non-issue. The main thing that hurts the Mafia winrate with the current list is that there is an extra Town role where the NK used to be. I'd replace one of the TI slots with a NB slot, so that there's another role that can side with the Mafia, and so that there's at least one less ability that the Town has.

"But kingmakers are bad", some people might say. NE and NK were already the two primary kingmakers that existed in Ranked. NE is still in the current list, and the change would effectively replace NK with NB, so it's not like anything's changed.

Also, kingmakers add more fun to the game imo. Trying to convince a kingmaker to side with you is interesting, and the possibility of this might keep dead players from leading, potentially helping to solve one of the issues with Medium.

[Soulshade55r]

I just don't understand why Neutral Killing would be removed from the list. It just got buffed a couple of months ago. Evils were already quick to give up before and now there are more town and less evils which doesn't help at all. I like ambusher and all but having GF as the only killer with no NK give town more time to confirm themselves and Mafia can be completely stopped by any Jailor or Escort finding GF and just hanging until they win. If ambushers could visit mafia this would be less of a problem (make it happen) but being jailed is just game over. The only strat I can see being viable for mafia in this list is simply not always going for a kill which again just gives town more time to confirm each other.

Neutral killing is incredibly bad for a ranked role list imo.

But even so 10v5 with a less reliable source of kpn (ambusher) kinda hurts mafia quite a bit

We definitely need to keep the list at the 9v6 format though.

I can totally see the argument for 9v6 against 10v5.

I definitely feel like this role list has potential to be way more skill based (Instead of one side getting disproportionatly killed by nk) I think the problem is town is at of big advantage even more so now, Ambusher being guaranteed is decent because it still keeps the extra kpn, the problem is ambusher is a very easily outed role.

But lets keep in mind this is just experimental rn and changes can happen

[DFrenchBoi]

NE, while often helpful to evils, can be made a useless evil. If an executioner gets a confirmed target such as a lookout finding 3 TPs correctly or a transporter who transported the mayor and another confirmed townie, they are useless.

In addition to this, a jester may kill a mafia member, whether deliberate or by accident. Their kill could also be wasted if the mafia/ambusher kill is on the same person that the jester haunts. In this scenario, town has hung an evil with no penalty, essentially having lynched a mafia member.

[Sandcastles]

I just don't understand why Neutral Killing would be removed from the list. It just got buffed a couple of months ago. Evils were already quick to give up before and now there are more town and less evils which doesn't help at all. I like ambusher and all but having GF as the only killer with no NK give town more time to confirm themselves and Mafia can be completely stopped by any Jailor or Escort finding GF and just hanging until they win. If ambushers could visit mafia this would be less of a problem (make it happen) but being jailed is just game over. The only strat I can see being viable for mafia in this list is simply not always going for a kill which again just gives town more time to confirm each other.

Neutral killing is incredibly bad for a ranked role list imo.

But even so 10v5 with a less reliable source of kpn (ambusher) kinda hurts mafia quite a bit

We definitely need to keep the list at the 9v6 format though.

I can totally see the argument for 9v6 against 10v5.

I definitely feel like this role list has potential to be way more skill based (Instead of one side getting disproportionatly killed by nk) I think the problem is town is at of big advantage even more so now, Ambusher being guaranteed is decent because it still keeps the extra kpn, the problem is ambusher is a very easily outed role.

But lets keep in mind this is just experimental rn and changes can happen

The role list felt better as 9v6 rather than 10v5 but if the town slot is given over to mafia they will have too much voting power after just a couple of kills. If the slot is given to Neutral benign we'd run into old amne problems. If its given to neutral evil the chaos caused by 2 potential witches or jesters could just make things worse than if it was NK.

[Soulshade55r]

I just don't understand why Neutral Killing would be removed from the list. It just got buffed a couple of months ago. Evils were already quick to give up before and now there are more town and less evils which doesn't help at all. I like ambusher and all but having GF as the only killer with no NK give town more time to confirm themselves and Mafia can be completely stopped by any Jailor or Escort finding GF and just hanging until they win. If ambushers could visit mafia this would be less of a problem (make it happen) but being jailed is just game over. The only strat I can see being viable for mafia in this list is simply not always going for a kill which again just gives town more time to confirm each other.

Neutral killing is incredibly bad for a ranked role list imo.

But even so 10v5 with a less reliable source of kpn (ambusher) kinda hurts mafia quite a bit

We definitely need to keep the list at the 9v6 format though.

I can totally see the argument for 9v6 against 10v5.

I definitely feel like this role list has potential to be way more skill based (Instead of one side getting disproportionatly killed by nk) I think the problem is town is at of big advantage even more so now, Ambusher being guaranteed is decent because it still keeps the extra kpn, the problem is ambusher is a very easily outed role.

But lets keep in mind this is just experimental rn and changes can happen

The role list felt better as 9v6 rather than 10v5 but if the town slot is given over to mafia they will have too much voting power after just a couple of kills. If the slot is given to Neutral benign we'd run into old amne problems. If its given to neutral evil the chaos caused by 2 potential witches or jesters could just make things worse than if it was NK.

I do think nks vote with mafia at least in "high elo games" Nks/will generally not vote at a 6v6 scenario so I don't think mafia having a high voting power would be too much of a problem

I'd honestly say two potential nes would be more balanced then Nk but that's just how I view it.

My main concern about NB is amne being able to remember mayor and Jailor now other then that I don't think NB has a problem.

[TheHats]

I played a game of ranked practice and it ended too quickly, in this game escort kept RBING the GF and mafia got 1 kill the whole game, we lynch and exe the 4 mafia and its over by day 4. NK is fun to play and should stay, and Ambusher is a pointless role that imo should have been kept in coven, NEVER moved into a guaranteed slot.
If you ambush TPLO, you're dead
if you ambush TI target, if 2 TI's exist you're probably also dead
If you randomly ambush, you won't kill anyone, or will run into silent vet
If you ambush a role that more than *exactly 1* person visits, you are dead.
On average amb will get one kill per game, while NK will get far more.
Also the fact it is 10v5 is just dumb as well.
I had a DM conversation with shapesifter, who explained why this is happening a bit, but still these changes need some work. while the old ranked list wasn't perfect, It took alot of skill.
Non-Skill parts of this role list: If the escort catches the GF *randomly N1* and continues to RB, mafia is dead
Ambusher is total RNG or reverse BG.
10v5 means any situation where mafia .as majority is now far rarer.
NK was a role that took alot of SKILL to win. while some would say "its RNG". Not really, you need a good claim and to get "confirmed" early and you're set.
These changes reduce the skill required to win to just RNG. I also don't understand why retri, LO, etc. were gutted to nerf town, yet town is buffed by far more than those changes nerfed.
Perspective: 10v5. maf kills someone, 9v5. maf kills someone else.8v5.Very low chance of ambusher randomly hitting someone.
or 9v6. maf kills someone. 8v6. Ret resses and maf kills someone else. 8v6. SK and WW add kills. Arso makes the game more interesting later.
These changes are basically a "free ressed townie" in the form of a new one added.
Overall, there is absolutely no need to change things for the sake of changing things. As they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Sandcastles]

I just don't understand why Neutral Killing would be removed from the list. It just got buffed a couple of months ago. Evils were already quick to give up before and now there are more town and less evils which doesn't help at all. I like ambusher and all but having GF as the only killer with no NK give town more time to confirm themselves and Mafia can be completely stopped by any Jailor or Escort finding GF and just hanging until they win. If ambushers could visit mafia this would be less of a problem (make it happen) but being jailed is just game over. The only strat I can see being viable for mafia in this list is simply not always going for a kill which again just gives town more time to confirm each other.

Neutral killing is incredibly bad for a ranked role list imo.

But even so 10v5 with a less reliable source of kpn (ambusher) kinda hurts mafia quite a bit

We definitely need to keep the list at the 9v6 format though.

I can totally see the argument for 9v6 against 10v5.

I definitely feel like this role list has potential to be way more skill based (Instead of one side getting disproportionatly killed by nk) I think the problem is town is at of big advantage even more so now, Ambusher being guaranteed is decent because it still keeps the extra kpn, the problem is ambusher is a very easily outed role.

But lets keep in mind this is just experimental rn and changes can happen

The role list felt better as 9v6 rather than 10v5 but if the town slot is given over to mafia they will have too much voting power after just a couple of kills. If the slot is given to Neutral benign we'd run into old amne problems. If its given to neutral evil the chaos caused by 2 potential witches or jesters could just make things worse than if it was NK.

I do think nks vote with mafia at least in "high elo games" Nks/will generally not vote at a 6v6 scenario so I don't think mafia having a high voting power would be too much of a problem

I'd honestly say two potential nes would be more balanced then Nk but that's just how I view it.

My main concern about NB is amne being able to remember mayor and Jailor now other then that I don't think NB has a problem.

Personally after seeing Ambusher and Hypno making their way into the base game, I'd like to see NB on the list in place of one of the confirmed TI and Guardian Angel move into the base game to make the role more engaging. NB may be healthier than NK or Another Mafia slot but Surv and Amne aren't all that exciting of roles to be placed in.

[CoolBeanss]

This was the ABSOLUTE worst thing that could have possibly been done to the role. Get rid of NE and put NK back....the minimized chaos/carnage caused by WW/ARSO 100% has ruined this game. After years of playing ranked, this new list is just horrible!

[Ezradekezra]

and Guardian Angel move into the base game to make the role more engaging.

• How would simply moving the role into the base game make it more engaging?
• Moving Coven roles into the base game devalues the Coven expansion, further killing it. If anything, more Coven-exclusive roles should be added, since Hypno and Amb escaping into the base game and Retri being reworked to be a Town Necro already takes enough away from the expansion.

[DFrenchBoi]

NK was a role that took alot of SKILL to win. while some would say "its RNG". Not really, you need a good claim and to get "confirmed" early and you're set.

Not really true. The problem is that NK and mafia are crucial to each other's winning chances, and yet they win independently. An NK who gets caught before night 3, kills a mafia (on purpose or by mistake), or gets unlucky/is incompetent and kills nobody almost always torpedoes mafia's winning chances. Similarly, NK needs the mafia to last long enough to provide the killing power and the votes that the NK doesn't have. For a ranked system, your success as a certain role requiring another player, who can only win when you lose, to play well, is not a great system. Strong NK claims are very hard to make, and honestly can be luck-based. NK doesn't have 3 other people to help confirm their claim, and they don't know who the mafia visited. This makes them the most suspicious spy claim since their will cannot be the first one posted without being placed in a 1 for 1 on day 2. Sheriff/tp claims are weak, TK is ok but you will eventually be outed, TS claims are again possible but you will likely be outed. Lookout would be the best claim to make, you could eliminate possible TPs until you know who TP is and then go from there, but you may get outed through no fault of your own. For example, I had a werewolf game where I became 'confirmed lookout.' My will was correct for all nights. Then, two things happen. One, as I stated earlier, a bad decision by the mafia screwed me over. It was 4 v 3 or maybe 5 v 3, I don't remember. The consig outs me as fake lookout, confirming that an evil will die that day. The mafia NEEDS my killing power, and losing one of their own also likely costs evils the game. Secondly, my will for that night was ccd by the bodyguard, who went on the person I watched instead of me or the living jailor, which doesn't make much sense and yet I still get outed from it.

This example shows both the problems with NK. The other evil faction can make you lose through no fault of your own, and the lack of information that comes from being a 1 player team that can kill and do nothing else at night makes your claims inherently weaker. There are ways to look confirmed as NK, but mafia fake claims will be stronger if the mafia puts in effort.

[Ezradekezra]

I'd like to recommend that further role lists be tested in the PTR, rather than in the main game. This way, everyone playing will have the intent of providing constructive feedback, and results won't be skewed by throwing and whatnot.

[Sandcastles]

and Guardian Angel move into the base game to make the role more engaging.

• How would simply moving the role into the base game make it more engaging?
• Moving Coven roles into the base game devalues the Coven expansion, further killing it. If anything, more Coven-exclusive roles should be added, since Hypno and Amb escaping into the base game and Retri being reworked to be a Town Necro already takes enough away from the expansion.

It would make Neutral Benign more engaging, at least for me personally. Being Surv or Amne for me doesn't require much thought and are easily found with the investigative results. GA however, makes me engage with town far more than either of the other NB roles and a you can still win after death. It's one of the best roles from the Coven expansion imo, I'd love to see it in the base game. The playerbase for coven is rather low in my experience and I rarely get to play it. As far as the role being in the base game devaluing the Coven expansion even further, BMG already made the decision to move coven roles and change ret, they can decide which parts of the game they value over other. I just personally would like to see it.

[Soulshade55r]

I played a game of ranked practice and it ended too quickly, in this game escort kept RBING the GF and mafia got 1 kill the whole game, we lynch and exe the 4 mafia and its over by day 4. NK is fun to play and should stay, and Ambusher is a pointless role that imo should have been kept in coven, NEVER moved into a guaranteed slot.
If you ambush TPLO, you're dead
if you ambush TI target, if 2 TI's exist you're probably also dead
If you randomly ambush, you won't kill anyone, or will run into silent vet
If you ambush a role that more than *exactly 1* person visits, you are dead.
On average amb will get one kill per game, while NK will get far more.
Also the fact it is 10v5 is just dumb as well.
I had a DM conversation with shapesifter, who explained why this is happening a bit, but still these changes need some work. while the old ranked list wasn't perfect, It took alot of skill.
Non-Skill parts of this role list: If the escort catches the GF *randomly N1* and continues to RB, mafia is dead
Ambusher is total RNG or reverse BG.
10v5 means any situation where mafia .as majority is now far rarer.
NK was a role that took alot of SKILL to win. while some would say "its RNG". Not really, you need a good claim and to get "confirmed" early and you're set.
These changes reduce the skill required to win to just RNG. I also don't understand why retri, LO, etc. were gutted to nerf town, yet town is buffed by far more than those changes nerfed.
Perspective: 10v5. maf kills someone, 9v5. maf kills someone else.8v5.Very low chance of ambusher randomly hitting someone.
or 9v6. maf kills someone. 8v6. Ret resses and maf kills someone else. 8v6. SK and WW add kills. Arso makes the game more interesting later.
These changes are basically a "free ressed townie" in the form of a new one added.
Overall, there is absolutely no need to change things for the sake of changing things. As they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I can agree with some things here Personally I'm glad to see Nk gone but I won't deny this is way too currently town sided:

Serval Things can be done, maybe making ambusher more consistent or a buff towards them might help.
The main Issue is that now if GF gets Jailed/rb'd and theirs no real way to counter that, but if RM gets replaced with Mafioso there's not enough mafia verity.

9v6 is the way to go I would love to see that tried without NK.

[CoolBeanss]

Moving Coven roles into the base game devalues the Coven expansion

I mean, what value are you referring to? More than half the people I know or play with do NOT even have Coven and it's a mere $5 dollars. There's no value if NO one plays it.