Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

[texer]

The biggest problem with the Arso change is that now the Witch can't team up with the Arso when the Witch finds them.

If we really want to kill the TPLO meta, Werewolf should've just gotten Powerful defense. Then Werewolf can just attack at Jailor's house N2 without fear of getting killed by a Bodyguard. It's more unbalanced when Werewolf is basically a more powerful SK after night 4.

Lookout change is great. The last-minute change to the SK is also great. Haven't played Juggernaut before so no comment on that.

These changes were overall okay, but some could use some improvement, especially the arso.

[BasuKun]

I don't think a lot of people in the thread actually understand the Lookout change
Everyone keeps stating that the Lookout change includes "RNG", but it clearly DOES NOT.

• Game - Lookout Nerf: The Lookout now can only see up to three people that visit per night. If there are more than three visitors, the Lookout will be aware that there were more visitors but won’t be able to identify them..

The lookout can see a MAXIMUM of 3 players.
If there are MORE THAN 3 players, then lookout will not see any("won't be able to identify them")

You're the one not understanding. LO, from what I've seen in game, sees a maximum of 3, then the remaining visits are not identified. He still randomly identified 3 out of those visits. So let's say 5 people visit the LO's target, how does the game decide which of these 5 players get identified by the LO, and which remaining 2 don't? That's RNG, and it's already causing trouble. I saw a RM get hung earlier because they were on Jailor faking as a TP, LO didn't see him because there were 3 other visits and he was unlucky enough to be the 4th one that wasn't seen, so LO didn't buy it and they hung the RM.

Of course you might say "well he was evil, so where's the problem", well the problem lies in the fact that if the RNG had been on the RM side, he would have been included in the 3 people that was identified by the LO, would have been "confirmed", and the person being hung would have instead been the 4th townie who would have been excluded from the LO's results. This means that his plan literally failed PURELY because of RNG.

It would have been so much better if the LO's ability completely fails if there are more than 3 visits (so no one is identified at all). THIS is how you actually put a dent on the TP/LO meta, and how you actually nerf LO without relying on RNG.

[OreCreeper]

My NK Buff Ideas

[orangeandblack5]

I don't think a lot of people in the thread actually understand the Lookout change
Everyone keeps stating that the Lookout change includes "RNG", but it clearly DOES NOT.

• Game - Lookout Nerf: The Lookout now can only see up to three people that visit per night. If there are more than three visitors, the Lookout will be aware that there were more visitors but won’t be able to identify them..

The lookout can see a MAXIMUM of 3 players.
If there are MORE THAN 3 players, then lookout will not see any("won't be able to identify them")

You're the one not understanding. LO, from what I've seen in game, sees a maximum of 3, then the remaining visits are not identified. He still randomly identified 3 out of those visits. So let's say 5 people visit the LO's target, how does the game decide which of these 5 players get identified by the LO, and which remaining 2 don't? That's RNG, and it's already causing trouble. I saw a RM get hung earlier because they were on Jailor faking as a TP, LO didn't see him because there were 3 other visits and he was unlucky enough to be the 4th one that wasn't seen, so LO didn't buy it and they hung the RM.

Of course you might say "well he was evil, so where's the problem", well the problem lies in the fact that if the RNG had been on the RM side, he would have been included in the 3 people that was identified by the LO, would have been "confirmed", and the person being hung would have instead been the 4th townie who would have been excluded from the LO's results. This means that his plan literally failed PURELY because of RNG.

It would have been so much better if the LO's ability completely fails if there are more than 3 visits (so no one is identified at all). THIS is how you actually put a dent on the TP/LO meta, and how you actually nerf LO without relying on RNG.

Ah

Confirmation

Why the fuck did we do this when the alternative is probably easier to code

[BasuKun]

Ah

Confirmation

Why the fuck did we do this when the alternative is probably easier to code

Note that I wasn't the LO so i can't 100% confirm this is what happened, but from what he's said, he had 3 names despite Jailor having more than 3 visits, so I'm 90% sure this is what's going on. Ideally I would like to see it myself or a screenshot of it to be 100% sure.

[Striving]

EDIT: oops nevermind, had performance issues but it was fixed just by doing a browser restart, sorry

[Toadlover123]

Ok I personally love nk but my reaction to these additions are mixed, I believe that some of it was done well but it was buffed too much, I’ll list each nk roll and how I think would be the better buff

Juggernaut: I don’t play coven much but I think the og juggernaut was balanced and creative, the point was to slowly level up, causing the buffs to reduce the point of the roll

WW: This change is entirely broken, the ww was pretty balanced before. My average game is 8 days, which means that if the ww isn’t discovered by d4 everyone is screwed and it’s easy enough to just rampage at home for the 1 full moon before the full moons are constant.

Arso: I think this buff is almost perfect but I think the better thing would be that the arso souses everyone who visits his target as well as his target, like the ww but nightly and not instant kills

Sk: I like the idea of being tame and not killing jail or or esc, but I think the bloodied will is op and can easily destroy a jailor game, I think the pushing past esc rbs to kill is give or take, it won’t really change my game or my opinions on sk.

[Brilliand]

Lookout nerf is annoying when there are 4+ visits on jailor you should be able to confirm them. And it's mostly just confirming townies who arent MK/SK/WW when those roles shouldnt be claiming TP or LO or Spy anyway.

You must really like seeing Town win.

If we really want to kill the TPLO meta, Werewolf should've just gotten Powerful defense. Then Werewolf can just attack at Jailor's house N2 without fear of getting killed by a Bodyguard. It's more unbalanced when Werewolf is basically a more powerful SK after night 4.

That's... actually a pretty good idea.

It puts the Bodyguard on the same level as the Doctor in terms of anti-Werewolf usefulness.

I don't think it would have been enough to solve either the tp/lo meta or the relative weakness of WW by itself, though.

[shapesifter13]

If we really want to kill the TPLO meta, Werewolf should've just gotten Powerful defense. Then Werewolf can just attack at Jailor's house N2 without fear of getting killed by a Bodyguard. It's more unbalanced when Werewolf is basically a more powerful SK after night 4.

That's... actually a pretty good idea.

It puts the Bodyguard on the same level as the Doctor in terms of anti-Werewolf usefulness.

I don't think it would have been enough to solve either the tp/lo meta or the relative weakness of WW by itself, though.

Problem with this, is that too my knowledge, and what I have experienced myself, the bulk of the Town visit N1, not N2. Yes, this might kill of some people N2 and the WW lives, but the information gained is still valuable. Possible if we had done this and swapped full moon nights to N1? Maybe that would have worked.

[Brilliand]

If we really want to kill the TPLO meta, Werewolf should've just gotten Powerful defense. Then Werewolf can just attack at Jailor's house N2 without fear of getting killed by a Bodyguard. It's more unbalanced when Werewolf is basically a more powerful SK after night 4.

That's... actually a pretty good idea.

It puts the Bodyguard on the same level as the Doctor in terms of anti-Werewolf usefulness.

I don't think it would have been enough to solve either the tp/lo meta or the relative weakness of WW by itself, though.

Problem with this, is that too my knowledge, and what I have experienced myself, the bulk of the Town visit N1, not N2. Yes, this might kill of some people N2 and the WW lives, but the information gained is still valuable.

I'd say make the change just because it improves the balance of a few roles. It doesn't need to be intended to solve everything.

[orangeandblack5]

I'd be happy to get 1/3/5/7/9 as full moons with powerful defense until we can rework it

Heck, could even sort of bring back the way defense used to work, and only give it powerful on full moons. Not really relevant in Ranked but probably does something in Coven?

If that's still weak 1/3/5+ is probably better than 2/4+ anyways

The only issue is that I think we see SoD2 Jailor claims with everyone visiting on N2 becoming the norm

But at least it weakens the strat

[orangeandblack5]

Ultimately though I think the best fix for Town stacking visits is just... Osservatore

[EqsyLootz]

I have my ups and downs on this patch.

Serial Killer --> Overall I like this patch giving it a little buff against getting Jailed N1 but accident and more powerful against escort and I've played like 8 games of ranked today and Serial Killer hasn't been the biggest issue. This buff is kinda swingy so im neutral on it

Werewolf --> Interesting although it makes games a bit shorter. It hasn't ruined Ranked that badly as even with the N4, N5, N6 attack if jailor is still alive and TP it can easily be taken down. So im also Neutral

Arsonist --> I played 2 Games with it and its been hell dealing with them. They just douse so many players. By Night 4 I swear 5 Towns were in flames due to the visits so im going to hope it gets a rework and nerf soon.

Juggernaut --> I didn't play CAA yet with jugg so idk.

Lookout --> Ill support it. It counteracts jailor meta and is still extremely powerful. Earlier today a LO still confirmed 3 Escorts who visited me (I was vigi in witch game outted by invest) even though it didn't find the witch it can still confirm and it's informed there were more visits.

Also I've seen people asking in the thread how LO works now. It sees 3 visits and will be informed if more people visit.

[TheHats]

why focus on lowering town winrate
town wins alot means lots of people get elo but they get tiny amounts of elo compared to maf/nk wins.
Ranked is inherently balanced because when a winrate is too high the elo gained is miniscule.
Losing as town subtracts massive amounts of elo while winning barely gives any, compared to maf and nk which give more elo and lose less.

its why NK is MEANT to be a 1 in a million, because if u succeed to win the 1 in a million you basically skip through NINE ranked games worth of town wins. Now that NK is buffed its now way more common to win and theres no longer a "SKILL JACKPOT" (As in, winning as NK is the only true demonsration of skill).

Jailor meta secured town wins, this causes town to win too much and now town winning barely gives any elo. Lowering mafia win rate made mafia harder to win with but gives a considerable sum of elo on winning with mafia, usually you lose, which subtracts a little bit of elo
Town winning too little will just flip the town-maf scale and then no one would want to play town, but instead of 4 roles not having a fun game, 9 roles do.

After the ret changes town winrate dropped considerably, so no further action was needed.
Instead the goal is for some reason to set *town below 50% WR*. It'll just make town the new mafia as ELO from winning as town goes up and losing down, and with maf the opposite direction, it'd be too easy to win as maf so barely any elo from winning and large losses from losing. Except it'd make the average winrate of a ranked player ~40%.

[TheHats]

Add on: right now, when I play maf, I see it as a considerable challenge to take on for a lump sum, knowing i'd likely fail, but if I succeed I can reap great rewards. In the futurely planned patch to make maf OP, it'd just be, "oh im maf time to sheep town again and get 3 elo" and if we fail "Welp -12 elo RIP"
Currently, that interaction is "oh im town time to own maf again and get 3 elo, if we fail we lose -12 elo" and maf is "oh im maf, i'll prolly fail and lose 3 elo but if I win I can gain 12 elo and get a nice boost". it'd just flip the roles for no purpose other than "Town bad mafia good".

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

Juggernaut --> I didn't play CAA yet with jugg so idk.

ITS SCARY MAN HE STARTS SLAUGHTERING PEOPLE
but its balanced



I'd say overall, the LO nerf is about 75% hated on and 25% liked.

In my opinion, it ultimately comes down to what the purpose of the Lookout is in the first place. Is it meant to find evils as they kill someone? Or is it meant to confirm town members that visit someone? Obviously, it's suppose to do both. However, being able to do both and confirm like 4 members of the town instantly is broken.

Personally, I am against this change. I hate RNG. I'm super unlucky. Random Jesters always hit me. Obviously LO needed a change but this missed the mark for me.

My (real) suggestion for the LO is that if you see 4 or more people visit your target, you won't get any of their names. At all. You will get the message "Someone visited your target last night!" for every visitor instead. However, you will also be notified if your target is attacked, like a Doctor.
The reason for this is so that there is no RNG involved, and it makes LO more based around finding evils instead of confirming TPs, Spies and Escorts. Obviously he is able to do this, but my personal belief is that this role should be about finding evils, as should every other TI role. Sheriffs find sus people, Invest closes claim space, and Spy confirms some Mafia roles. (Tracker and Psychic also), so that should be LO's purpose as well.

Or just give mafia the ninja attack :/
(or my incredible idea #31)

[Brilliand]

Is it meant to find evils as they kill someone? Or is it meant to confirm town members that visit someone?

I think ideally it should be finding evils by catching them lying about who they visited on any given night, much like Investigator finds evils by catching them lying about what role they are. The thing is, Lookout should only be able to do this at roughly the same speed the Investigator does it.
(Tracker does a pretty good job of actually being what the Lookout is supposed to be.)

This gets me wondering what role would be equivalent to Investigator in the same way as Lookout is equivalent to Tracker. Hmm... probably would be a role that picks a possible Investigator resultset each night and gets told whether any role in that resultset is currently alive. (Seeing which players have roles in that resultset would be a closer metaphor, but would be even more overpowered than Lookout.)

Hey... wouldn't nerfing the Lookout to the point where it simply sees the number of players who visited a particular person still leave it capable of pulling its weight? It's useless by itself, but could be stretched pretty far with process of elimination.

[orangeandblack5]

I would not be against that, actually, even if it is pretty drastic of a nerf.

Watchers are really strong

And sure, this would now be way weaker, but it'd still be around Sheriff probably

I wouldn't full send immediately but I do kinda like the idea and would invite further discussion on the general concept

[OreCreeper]

Lookout nerf is annoying when there are 4+ visits on jailor you should be able to confirm them. And it's mostly just confirming townies who arent MK/SK/WW when those roles shouldnt be claiming TP or LO or Spy anyway.

You must really like seeing Town win.

Well town should be winning around 45-55% of the games because of town having the most numbers. Mafia should be winning 30-35% of the time, and NK should win around 10-15% of the time. And no, I don’t want town to always win, I just don’t want to lower the skill ceiling for Mafia/NK by adding borderline broken changes. For LO, having RM visiting jailor remove the confirmed status from TPs and escorts going on jailor. This, lookouts should not be confirming half the town on d2 assuming Mafia follows the RM meta. Spies can confirm themselves on their own without the help of LO, but spy should be reworked anyway as it is too much of a hard counter to certain roles.

If we really want to kill the TPLO meta, Werewolf should've just gotten Powerful defense. Then Werewolf can just attack at Jailor's house N2 without fear of getting killed by a Bodyguard. It's more unbalanced when Werewolf is basically a more powerful SK after night 4.

That's... actually a pretty good idea.

It puts the Bodyguard on the same level as the Doctor in terms of anti-Werewolf usefulness.

I don't think it would have been enough to solve either the tp/lo meta or the relative weakness of WW by itself, though.
Ive proposed this change many times before but this idea along with giving werewolf some other additional buff should be enough to make the role balanced. It makes it easier for werewolf to use the jailor meta to score easy kills on TPs N2 without fear of getting killed by a BG. Another thing I found about the current werewolf change is that it nerfs Mafia a lot in werewolf games. Since town almost always side with the NK late game, winning as mafia in a werewolf game may become impossible since werewolf can kill all of your mafia including GF. This happened in one of my games, and the only way I was able to win was by convincing the doc to lynch the WW by some miracle, though this usually wouldn’t happen.

[OreCreeper]

Ultimately though I think the best fix for Town stacking visits is just... Osservatore

Honestly I’m not too against this but the role is pretty weak on its own so it should be paired with a non investigative ability. I’ve proposed a Mafia tracker that can guess who a player visits and kill the player with a correct guess, while learning who they visit at the end of a night. The lookout mechanic can be added as an extension to the forger as a separate ability from their forging ability, since forger is already in the same result as lookout anyways.

[WindKyubi]

Thank you, long overdue buffs!

[kyuss420]

I'd say overall, the LO nerf is about 75% hated on and 25% liked.

In my opinion, it ultimately comes down to what the purpose of the Lookout is in the first place. Is it meant to find evils as they kill someone? Or is it meant to confirm town members that visit someone? Obviously, it's suppose to do both. However, being able to do both and confirm like 4 members of the town instantly is broken.

Personally, I am against this change. I hate RNG. I'm super unlucky. Random Jesters always hit me. Obviously LO needed a change but this missed the mark for me.

My (real) suggestion for the LO is that if you see 4 or more people visit your target, you won't get any of their names. At all. You will get the message "Someone visited your target last night!" for every visitor instead. However, you will also be notified if your target is attacked, like a Doctor.
The reason for this is so that there is no RNG involved, and it makes LO more based around finding evils instead of confirming TPs, Spies and Escorts. Obviously he is able to do this, but my personal belief is that this role should be about finding evils, as should every other TI role. Sheriffs find sus people, Invest closes claim space, and Spy confirms some Mafia roles. (Tracker and Psychic also), so that should be LO's purpose as well.

Or just give mafia the ninja attack :/
(or my incredible idea #31)

Sheriff also finds inno people, Tracker can also be used to confirm a TP, Invest doesnt really close claim space for townies... unless vigi/mayor is trying to hide, Spy confirms townies because mafia cant visit themselves, Psy good vision can also confirm townies if an evil happens to fall on a good night.
So all TI roles are based around confirming townies, just as much as theyre based around finding evils (which is why silent TIs are dumb TIs) basically everyone they visit gives a bit of information that can confirm them as good or evil or as liars, and theres really nothing wrong with using the ability either way.

The difference with LO, is that it has (had) the ability to potentially do 4-5 nights worth of work (for any other TI), in 1 night and thats how it ended up being used.

[orangeandblack5]

Ultimately though I think the best fix for Town stacking visits is just... Osservatore

Honestly I’m not too against this but the role is pretty weak on its own so it should be paired with a non investigative ability. I’ve proposed a Mafia tracker that can guess who a player visits and kill the player with a correct guess, while learning who they visit at the end of a night. The lookout mechanic can be added as an extension to the forger as a separate ability from their forging ability, since forger is already in the same result as lookout anyways.

I think Traitor Lookout has proven that the watch ability is strong enough on its own.

Add in a track for coverage and I'm quite convinced it's one of the strongest Mafia roles at the moment, even without reading whispers instead of Blackmailer.

Giving it KP for guesses is certainly unnecessary.

[EqsyLootz]

The main reason town has higher W/L is because theres 9 Town in ranked so considering town loses more games it means more people lose elo compared to the slim ammount of elo loss from 4 evils or NK.

[LCo]

Liking the changes so far but the LO nerf isn't really doing much as there's rarely more than 3 visits anyway. If you really wanted to visibly nerf lookout make it 2 visits max.