Framer Balance Idea

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Framer Balance Idea

Postby shapesifter13 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:57 pm

Hey Townies!

We are looking into ways to help improve the framers role in the Mafia as the anti-investigate role. Currently it only affects the Sheriff and the Investigator, leaving the Spy, Lookout, Psychic, and Tracker unaffected. In this post I am going to focusing on the Lookout specifically.

One possibility to improve the framer would be to show the lookout that the framed target visited their target. This, combined with the lookout seeing 3 roles max per night, would mean the framer has more power as an anti-investigative role. As the community, what is your opinion on a change like this. Is there any scenario that this would be a negative? Is there another suggestion to effect the lookout that wouldn't require extra targeting menus for the framer?
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Brilliand » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:46 pm

Always making it looks like the framed target visited the Lookout's target is a bit much. That would be more likely to confirm the existence of the Framer and tell the Town which player was framed than to actually cause confusion.

I've previously seen the proposal that if the Lookout is watching the person the Mafia kills, they see the framed person visit that target instead of seeing the Mafia Killer. That would more reliably allow the Framer to mess with the Lookout, without tipping the Town off as to what is going on. (This was included as part of JacksonVirgo's Framer rework, which required two targets as written but would still work pretty well with only one target.)

And - just brainstorming - the opposite idea (the Lookout doesn't see the framed player visit at all, even if they're watching the person the framed player visited) would also usefully weaken the Lookout, and would be more effective against the Jailor meta in particular.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby TylerDurden99 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:15 pm

Let the framer visit mafia one time so they look inno/visited by mafia to the spy.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby shapesifter13 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:22 pm

TylerDurden99 wrote:Let the framer visit mafia one time so they look inno/visited by mafia to the spy.


Thank you, but we are trying to focus this post on the Lookout specifically. Since the framer changes can be widely different for each investigative role they interacting with we are splitting up the posts.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Circi » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:29 pm

TylerDurden99 wrote:Let the framer visit mafia one time so they look inno/visited by mafia to the spy.



This would be a better buff. Buff with lo is a bit useless imo, lookouts' main function is more often to confirm visiting roles in ranked than catching mafia killing.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby shapesifter13 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:32 pm

Circi wrote:
TylerDurden99 wrote:Let the framer visit mafia one time so they look inno/visited by mafia to the spy.



This would be a better buff. Buff with lo is a bit useless imo, lookouts' main function is more often to confirm visiting roles in ranked than catching mafia killing.


While this may be true, we are focusing on the Lookout here. The other investigative roles will have their time to be discussed as well. Just trying to keep this topic focused.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Brilliand » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:33 pm

Circi wrote:Buff with lo is a bit useless imo, lookouts' main function is more often to confirm visiting roles in ranked than catching mafia killing.


Are you saying you would support my "brainstorm" idea of not letting the Lookout see the framed person visit?
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:34 pm

If Framer visits LO target, LO sees a random town member instead.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby lemonader666 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:42 pm

Hello there
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=75850
DragonClaw66 wrote:Abilities: Choose a player at night to framer. Choose another player to focus. You will not visit the focused player. You can choose yourself as the focused player.
Attributes:
- If you are lynched (or killed at night?), you will appear to be the role of the last player you framed.
- If a framed player...
...is tracked by a Tracker, it will appear as if they visited the focused player.
...is investigated by an Investigator, they will appear to a Framer, Vampire, Jester, or Hex Master.
...is interrogated by a Sheriff, they will appear to be a member of the Mafia.
...visits a player that is trapped, the Trapper will receive a notification of a Framer visiting the player.
- If a focused player is...
...is watched by a Lookout, it will appear as if they were visited by the framed player.
- A framed player will appear in a Psychic’s evil (odd-numbered night) vision. There must still be a player that would normally appear as evil. A framed player will never appear in the Psychic’s good (even-numbered night) vision.
- Your visit cannot be seen by a Spy (that would completely counter this role).

(Note that the bolded part was still up for discussion in the thread)

you can email me at lemonader666@gmail.com if need be
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Brilliand » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:54 pm

lemonader666 wrote:Hello there
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=75850


This is a 2-target role, so I'll try to trim it down to just the Lookout portion with a single target...

...and I can't, really. It arguably boils down to the suggestion shapesifter mentioned in the OP, but unlike JacksonVirgo's idea it loses a lot by getting reduced to a single target.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby SwampRabbit » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:06 pm

Framer is the most ineffective role in mafia and one of the most boring to play, so any changes you make to it will be an improvement.

For clarification, would a framer make their target appear to visit whoever each of the LO is watching, meaning that if 2 or more LO are in game and watching different people, they will each see the framed target visit different people? If that is the case, then a framer would be very quickly outed especially if there is a spy also in the game.

I know you want to focus only on LO here, but I think the change to just LO will be too easy to spot the framer and so not effective at all.

I do not think you can make framer more effective by looking at only 1 investigative role. I prefer a combined approach of making framer visits invisible to the spies, allowing framer to visit mafia to make them appear inno (as suggested by pyromonkey in another thread), possibly not having framer spawn into games that have no sheriff (kind of like VH can't spawn when there are no vamps), and making the framed person appear to visit a specific target, rather than all the different targets that each LO is watching---none of which meets what you would like to talk about here, but without the other changes, I don't see how the change to LO results will help framer be effective in any mode.

WAIT--what if you make the framed target appear to visit whoever the mafia is attacking in place of the killing mafia??? That way if LO is watching tp, or jailor or whoever, mafia can just kill them and frame to make it look like someone else did it.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby shapesifter13 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:40 pm

SwampRabbit wrote:WAIT--what if you make the framed target appear to visit whoever the mafia is attacking in place of the killing mafia??? That way if LO is watching tp, or jailor or whoever, mafia can just kill them and frame to make it look like someone else did it.


That was what I was thinking when I read Brilliand's suggestion.

As for balancing it with other roles in mind, that is fine. I just don't want the discussion to derail into hows here you make it better when talking about Spy. If your suggestion is do X, but only if Y role is also changed to do Z, then sure.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Circi » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:03 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:
Circi wrote:
TylerDurden99 wrote:Let the framer visit mafia one time so they look inno/visited by mafia to the spy.



This would be a better buff. Buff with lo is a bit useless imo, lookouts' main function is more often to confirm visiting roles in ranked than catching mafia killing.


While this may be true, we are focusing on the Lookout here. The other investigative roles will have their time to be discussed as well. Just trying to keep this topic focused.


Thats what I'm trying to say.......the buff you are suggesting isn't that useful because the function of lookout is more to confirm visiting roles than to catch mafia killing.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby shapesifter13 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:16 pm

Circi wrote:
shapesifter13 wrote:
Circi wrote:
TylerDurden99 wrote:Let the framer visit mafia one time so they look inno/visited by mafia to the spy.



This would be a better buff. Buff with lo is a bit useless imo, lookouts' main function is more often to confirm visiting roles in ranked than catching mafia killing.


While this may be true, we are focusing on the Lookout here. The other investigative roles will have their time to be discussed as well. Just trying to keep this topic focused.


Thats what I'm trying to say.......the buff you are suggesting isn't that useful because the function of lookout is more to confirm visiting roles than to catch mafia killing.


Mafia roles visit as well, so being able to cause confusion for the lookout helps the Mafia still.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Brilliand » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:24 pm

Circi wrote:the function of lookout is more to confirm visiting roles than to catch mafia killing.


If that's the case, we could definitely make the Framer mess with the Lookout's ability to confirm people. The idea I introduced as a "brainstorm" does just that.

We could even do both; the two proposals don't exactly conflict with each other (unless the framed player did in fact visit the mafia kill, but that's an edge case and not too hard to deal with).
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby TylerDurden99 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:12 am

I honestly don't like all that mess up to the lookout like watching the max 3 targets.

Honestly, I think lookout is a balanced role. You can easily counter with bmer/consort or you can just kill them.

Maybe framing the target to appear as the killer could work, but in my point of view the way of balancing the game is working in other to mafia to look more townie instead of making big confusion to roles like lookout. I like the town roles simple and clear so I tend to just prefer slight buffs in mafia roles.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:52 am

SwampRabbit wrote:WAIT--what if you make the framed target appear to visit whoever the mafia is attacking in place of the killing mafia??? That way if LO is watching tp, or jailor or whoever, mafia can just kill them and frame to make it look like someone else did it.

If this comes through there could be an achievement for a Lookout seeing himself visit someone (LO on Mafia target, LO get’s framed)
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:53 am

TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:
SwampRabbit wrote:WAIT--what if you make the framed target appear to visit whoever the mafia is attacking in place of the killing mafia??? That way if LO is watching tp, or jailor or whoever, mafia can just kill them and frame to make it look like someone else did it.

If this comes through there could be an achievement for a Lookout seeing himself visit someone (LO on Mafia target, LO gets framed)

Also LO doesn’t need nerf smh
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Brilliand » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:40 am

TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:Also LO doesn’t need nerf smh


While I disagree with you... I think the point here is more that Framer needs a hell of a buff.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby OreCreeper » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:42 pm

I'm basing this off the "frame/focus" framer concept that many people have come up with.

The framed person will appear to a Lookout when they watch who the focused person visits. This allows for more utility than just "the mafia kill was visited by this guy". This is pretty useless and in a lot of scenarios doesnt even make sense (if someone was on jailor n1, how can they be the mafioso?). And the mafia not killing anyone would have a weird effect too. With Tracker, when they track the framed guy, they will see them visit who the focused player visits. But this is for LO specifically so I'm not gonna go into that.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby OreCreeper » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:17 pm

Brilliand wrote:
TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:Also LO doesn’t need nerf smh


While I disagree with you... I think the point here is more that Framer needs a hell of a buff.

Yeah framer needs buffs but imo LO is a fine role as is
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby SwampRabbit » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:23 pm

TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:Also LO doesn’t need nerf smh


Oh yeah, it definitely does need one. I love the role of LO, but it is OP AF. From the data from the ranked tournaments we have held (more than a thousand RP games all together now), if town has no LO, the town win rate drops by approximately 12%, and if the town has 2 or more LOs, the town win rate jumps to approx. 83% (up ~14%)(with or without the old retri. I don't have data yet with new retri, but I expect no difference concerning the effect of the LO spawning).


As to having the framed person appear to visit the murdered person, I assume they would no longer be visible visiting whoever they actually visit. But for this to be effective, it should also be invisible to the spy or else it is pointless and the framer is still stuck at home not visiting anyone.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby Brilliand » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:19 pm

SwampRabbit wrote:But for this to be effective, it should also be invisible to the spy or else it is pointless and the framer is still stuck at home not visiting anyone.


I think the Framer visit will need to be invisible to the Spy no matter what other buffs he gets, so this probably belongs in the (yet-to-be-created) Framer vs. Spy thread... but yes, it's worth noting that none of these other Framer buffs will produce any benefits until the Framer vs. Spy interaction is fixed.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby DragonClaw66 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:57 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:Hey Townies!

We are looking into ways to help improve the framers role in the Mafia as the anti-investigate role. Currently it only affects the Sheriff and the Investigator, leaving the Spy, Lookout, Psychic, and Tracker unaffected. In this post I am going to focusing on the Lookout specifically.

One possibility to improve the framer would be to show the lookout that the framed target visited their target. This, combined with the lookout seeing 3 roles max per night, would mean the framer has more power as an anti-investigative role. As the community, what is your opinion on a change like this. Is there any scenario that this would be a negative? Is there another suggestion to effect the lookout that wouldn't require extra targeting menus for the framer?

Obligatory link to my Framer rework.

For a general point, I think y'all should focusing on changing the Framer's interaction with the Spy (aka, make the Spy not hardcounter the Framer simply by existing). Even if you just make Framer visits invisible to the Spy, which wouldn't be the best change, it would be better than nothing.
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Re: Framer Balance Idea

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:04 pm

DragonClaw66 wrote:For a general point, I think y'all should focusing on changing the Framer's interaction with the Spy (aka, make the Spy not hardcounter the Framer simply by existing). Even if you just make Framer visits invisible to the Spy, which wouldn't be the best change, it would be better than nothing.
The Spy really ought to just be reworked entirely

It's not just Framer that gets fucked here, Spy makes most Random Mafia roles a lot harder than they need to be and also ruins NK's day when the Mafia accidentally smacks them

So rather than making this role or that role Spy-immune, there should just be another thread dedicated to opening the can of worms that is the Spy. Until that thread is made, we should put the subject of specific Random Mafia roles' interaction with the Spy to rest.
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