Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:09 pm

Ignoring the "interesting" conversation between GreekGodSudura and Brilliand (Which the reason likely SK > WW > Arso was considered the ways NKs powers were brought up earlier) I am glad to see some discussion about other roles that need changes as well.

IMO with the stats SK and WW buffs are fine and will make them a bit stronger without breaking too much (WW will only gain killing power late game where rampage doesn't grant kills as much and remove situations where Werewolf is known but doesn't need to be lynched because of full moon cycles and SK will gain a situational buff that gives him the power to punish and gain more kills in a tight spot.) and Arsonist while I also like will very likely get changes based on the general reaction to most. Which I'll admit arsonist will likely need to be tweaked (As the forever mentioned Witch controlling Arso)
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:23 am

Achilles wrote:Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night. Unless there was a clear priority players are expected to know, this makes the game based on RNG.
Psychic will work the same but not have its alternating nights tied into full moon nights. kill psychic in general

Neutral Killing Buffs
SerialKiller will not be stopped from attacking it's target by roleblocks. This allows for a double kill (the roleblocker and the SK target being attacked in the same night). Additionally when a SerialKiller kills a roleblocker, the last will of the roleblocker will be covered in blood, preventing it from being readable.
Just make SK role block immune. Even cleaning wills is counteracted by escorts announcing who they're going to rb each day.
Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).
actually, this could work provided the arsonist's direct target is told they are doused.
Werewolf - After night 4 every night will be a full moon night
sure
Juggernaut - Juggernaut will now have basic defense. Rampaging and Unstoppable attack upgrades now require 1 less kill to unlock.
sure
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby GreekGodSudura » Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:33 am

Kirize12 wrote:
Achilles wrote:Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night. Unless there was a clear priority players are expected to know, this makes the game based on RNG.
Psychic will work the same but not have its alternating nights tied into full moon nights. kill psychic in general

Neutral Killing Buffs
SerialKiller will not be stopped from attacking it's target by roleblocks. This allows for a double kill (the roleblocker and the SK target being attacked in the same night). Additionally when a SerialKiller kills a roleblocker, the last will of the roleblocker will be covered in blood, preventing it from being readable.
Just make SK role block immune. Even cleaning wills is counteracted by escorts announcing who they're going to rb each day.
Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).
actually, this could work provided the arsonist's direct target is told they are doused.
Werewolf - After night 4 every night will be a full moon night
sure
Juggernaut - Juggernaut will now have basic defense. Rampaging and Unstoppable attack upgrades now require 1 less kill to unlock.
sure


imagine just wanting to revert the arsonist back to being completely worthless as soon as it gets a buff?????????????????????
and making sk roleblock immune confirms it as sk, lowers KPN versus this buff, and doesn't rely on escort announcing (which they wouldnt tbh)
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Brilliand » Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:02 am

GreekGodSudura wrote:and making sk roleblock immune confirms it as sk


How?

Escorts don't get told if the person they visited was roleblock immune.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby OreCreeper » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:32 am

GreekGodSudura wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
Achilles wrote:Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night. Unless there was a clear priority players are expected to know, this makes the game based on RNG.
Psychic will work the same but not have its alternating nights tied into full moon nights. kill psychic in general

Neutral Killing Buffs
SerialKiller will not be stopped from attacking it's target by roleblocks. This allows for a double kill (the roleblocker and the SK target being attacked in the same night). Additionally when a SerialKiller kills a roleblocker, the last will of the roleblocker will be covered in blood, preventing it from being readable.
Just make SK role block immune. Even cleaning wills is counteracted by escorts announcing who they're going to rb each day.
Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).
actually, this could work provided the arsonist's direct target is told they are doused.
Werewolf - After night 4 every night will be a full moon night
sure
Juggernaut - Juggernaut will now have basic defense. Rampaging and Unstoppable attack upgrades now require 1 less kill to unlock.
sure


imagine just wanting to revert the arsonist back to being completely worthless as soon as it gets a buff?????????????????????
and making sk roleblock immune confirms it as sk, lowers KPN versus this buff, and doesn't rely on escort announcing (which they wouldnt tbh)

Well you're basing this off of the assumption that the escort is stupid, so your point is immediately invalid.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby GreekGodSudura » Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:49 am

OreCreeper wrote:
GreekGodSudura wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
Achilles wrote:Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night. Unless there was a clear priority players are expected to know, this makes the game based on RNG.
Psychic will work the same but not have its alternating nights tied into full moon nights. kill psychic in general

Neutral Killing Buffs
SerialKiller will not be stopped from attacking it's target by roleblocks. This allows for a double kill (the roleblocker and the SK target being attacked in the same night). Additionally when a SerialKiller kills a roleblocker, the last will of the roleblocker will be covered in blood, preventing it from being readable.
Just make SK role block immune. Even cleaning wills is counteracted by escorts announcing who they're going to rb each day.
Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).
actually, this could work provided the arsonist's direct target is told they are doused.
Werewolf - After night 4 every night will be a full moon night
sure
Juggernaut - Juggernaut will now have basic defense. Rampaging and Unstoppable attack upgrades now require 1 less kill to unlock.
sure


imagine just wanting to revert the arsonist back to being completely worthless as soon as it gets a buff?????????????????????
and making sk roleblock immune confirms it as sk, lowers KPN versus this buff, and doesn't rely on escort announcing (which they wouldnt tbh)

Well you're basing this off of the assumption that the escort is stupid, so your point is immediately invalid.


you're basing it off the assumption they're not??? are you disabled? im basing it off the point being that NOT ALL OF THEM will, so you can't balance around a meta. isn't that what you toxic imbeciles constantly go on about?

it's better. it doesnt matter if it can be counteracted. nobody said it couldnt. that doesnt rule out that it changes SOME games, and is an IMPROVEMENT. you're saying "well it wont help in 100% of games so remove it"

perhaps stop basing everything off YOUR assumptions, you egotistical useless mug
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Brilliand » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:30 pm

GreekGodSudura wrote:isn't that what you toxic imbeciles constantly go on about?


Keep in mind that not all those who frequent Role Ideas are united. Case in point: I don't like OreCreeper at all, and I don't think either of us have actually said that you can't balance around a meta (though I tend to think that the other people who said that are probably right).
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby GreekGodSudura » Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:05 pm

Brilliand wrote:
GreekGodSudura wrote:isn't that what you toxic imbeciles constantly go on about?


Keep in mind that not all those who frequent Role Ideas are united. Case in point: I don't like OreCreeper at all, and I don't think either of us have actually said that you can't balance around a meta (though I tend to think that the other people who said that are probably right).


Gaming.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby goldwars21 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:32 pm

I thought forger could be updated,
Let forger “lock in” at night, and see the will of the person they are forging, this would make mafia need to coordinate better and also allow forgers to have relevant forges (vs just clearing wills)
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby ydnnek » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:53 pm

goldwars21 wrote:I thought forger could be updated,
Let forger “lock in” at night, and see the will of the person they are forging, this would make mafia need to coordinate better and also allow forgers to have relevant forges (vs just clearing wills)


I feel like a simple way to combat this is to just cut your will before the night phase begins. Of course, you can perhaps counter this by letting the forger see "historical versions" of ones' wills.
Or maybe the counter to this forger ability would be to just update your will in the Notes section, and pasting it during the night phase... you get what I mean.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:05 am

GreekGodSudura wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
Achilles wrote:Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night. Unless there was a clear priority players are expected to know, this makes the game based on RNG.
Psychic will work the same but not have its alternating nights tied into full moon nights. kill psychic in general

Neutral Killing Buffs
SerialKiller will not be stopped from attacking it's target by roleblocks. This allows for a double kill (the roleblocker and the SK target being attacked in the same night). Additionally when a SerialKiller kills a roleblocker, the last will of the roleblocker will be covered in blood, preventing it from being readable.
Just make SK role block immune. Even cleaning wills is counteracted by escorts announcing who they're going to rb each day.
Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).
actually, this could work provided the arsonist's direct target is told they are doused.
Werewolf - After night 4 every night will be a full moon night
sure
Juggernaut - Juggernaut will now have basic defense. Rampaging and Unstoppable attack upgrades now require 1 less kill to unlock.
sure


imagine just wanting to revert the arsonist back to being completely worthless as soon as it gets a buff?????????????????????
and making sk roleblock immune confirms it as sk, lowers KPN versus this buff, and doesn't rely on escort announcing (which they wouldnt tbh)

is this a joke? the only person told is the arsonist's DIRECT target, and since more people can visit it than it can visit more people will be not informed. as well, silent douses aren't without their drawbacks - viewtopic.php?f=14&t=63195&p=2031538&hilit=kiki#p2028178 and to silently douse EVERYONE is completely broken

that's not how it works dude. making sk rb immune means no one can be confirmed as sk via escort (remember that notifications for rb immunity are not given), cannot possibly lower kpn and would have the same as it is now
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:34 am

Escort basically announcing who they will be randomly visiting to find SK to feed SK the double kill so the SK can plan ahead.

I see no way this could backfire
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby GreekGodSudura » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:52 am

HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:Escort basically announcing who they will be randomly visiting to find SK to feed SK the double kill so the SK can plan ahead.

I see no way this could backfire


If you're implying that they fail and another SK hits them, the will wouldn't be cleaned.

If you're saying giving SK a double kill is the problem, I disagree - It certainly won't change the course of a game in their favour in any balanced rolelist.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Ddynamo » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:19 am

GreekGodSudura wrote:
HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:Escort basically announcing who they will be randomly visiting to find SK to feed SK the double kill so the SK can plan ahead.

I see no way this could backfire


If you're implying that they fail and another SK hits them, the will wouldn't be cleaned.

If you're saying giving SK a double kill is the problem, I disagree - It certainly won't change the course of a game in their favour in any balanced rolelist.


He's saying escort announcing who they roleblock would be a bad strategy because... I don't really understand, to be honest.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby OreCreeper » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:49 am

HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:Escort basically announcing who they will be randomly visiting to find SK to feed SK the double kill so the SK can plan ahead.

I see no way this could backfire

How can it backfire? The will covered in blood is a dead giveaway.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby DFrenchBoi » Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:34 am

goldwars21 wrote:I thought forger could be updated,
Let forger “lock in” at night, and see the will of the person they are forging, this would make mafia need to coordinate better and also allow forgers to have relevant forges (vs just clearing wills)


This would be too strong, essentially making forger a consigliere that is allowed to gain information at night. A potential buff to forger is giving it more forges, or making it invisible to spies so you can't tell if a will is forged or not (this is a very strong buff, not sure how this would play out in game). The Mafia already have an advantage because they know that the role a person is claiming is probably their real role unless they are NK, NE, or fake claiming as town. The Mafia needs to extract as much information as possible without helping the town gather information. This allows them to inform their kills and coordinate their random mafia. This is one of the reasons consigliere is a fun and useful role: it tells the mafia the exact role of someone who might refuse to claim or helps them find the NK or NE so they can temporarily coordinate to improve their winning chances.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:11 pm

Ddynamo wrote:
GreekGodSudura wrote:
HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:Escort basically announcing who they will be randomly visiting to find SK to feed SK the double kill so the SK can plan ahead.

I see no way this could backfire


If you're implying that they fail and another SK hits them, the will wouldn't be cleaned.

If you're saying giving SK a double kill is the problem, I disagree - It certainly won't change the course of a game in their favour in any balanced rolelist.


He's saying escort announcing who they roleblock would be a bad strategy because... I don't really understand, to be honest.

You give SK two targets and the ability to make plays off of escort for the reward of maybe finding SK with the Escort... except.
-SK can just stab the Escort and kill the active threat (it doesn't matter if you don't bloody the will if it means you'll have a bit longer to live and make plays), forcing TP/LO to consider whenever or not to move to escort instead of jailor/mayor/other confirmed town that Mafia could capitalize on.
-SK can just stab whoever Escort roleblocks as well, adding another possible layer for TP/LO to consider and getting easy targets to stab
-SK will also know when they get roleblocked ahead of time, allowing them to freely make risky plays like attacking Jailor or Mayor even with TP/LO on them because they know that they'll likely be dead anyways.
-Witch can also just control Escort and make Escort actively harm town more.
You're adding 3/4 potential WIFOM situation to occur towards TP/LO while trying to find SK with Escort for a decent amount of risk as well
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby OreCreeper » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:24 pm

HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:
Ddynamo wrote:
GreekGodSudura wrote:
HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:Escort basically announcing who they will be randomly visiting to find SK to feed SK the double kill so the SK can plan ahead.

I see no way this could backfire


If you're implying that they fail and another SK hits them, the will wouldn't be cleaned.

If you're saying giving SK a double kill is the problem, I disagree - It certainly won't change the course of a game in their favour in any balanced rolelist.


He's saying escort announcing who they roleblock would be a bad strategy because... I don't really understand, to be honest.

You give SK two targets and the ability to make plays off of escort for the reward of maybe finding SK with the Escort... except.
-SK can just stab the Escort and kill the active threat (it doesn't matter if you don't bloody the will if it means you'll have a bit longer to live and make plays), forcing TP/LO to consider whenever or not to move to escort instead of jailor/mayor/other confirmed town that Mafia could capitalize on.
Escort doesn't have to come out, they can literally just whisper to a confirmed townie like jailor.
-SK can just stab whoever Escort roleblocks as well, adding another possible layer for TP/LO to consider and getting easy targets to stab
and what exactly does this do?
-SK will also know when they get roleblocked ahead of time, allowing them to freely make risky plays like attacking Jailor or Mayor even with TP/LO on them because they know that they'll likely be dead anyways.
-Witch can also just control Escort and make Escort actively harm town more.
we shouldn't be encouraging suicidal plays, and there is a good chance there's no witch, and again, escort can just whisper
You're adding 3/4 potential WIFOM situation to occur towards TP/LO while trying to find SK with Escort for a decent amount of risk as well
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby OreCreeper » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:24 pm

HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:
Ddynamo wrote:
GreekGodSudura wrote:
HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:Escort basically announcing who they will be randomly visiting to find SK to feed SK the double kill so the SK can plan ahead.

I see no way this could backfire


If you're implying that they fail and another SK hits them, the will wouldn't be cleaned.

If you're saying giving SK a double kill is the problem, I disagree - It certainly won't change the course of a game in their favour in any balanced rolelist.


He's saying escort announcing who they roleblock would be a bad strategy because... I don't really understand, to be honest.

You give SK two targets and the ability to make plays off of escort for the reward of maybe finding SK with the Escort... except.
-SK can just stab the Escort and kill the active threat (it doesn't matter if you don't bloody the will if it means you'll have a bit longer to live and make plays), forcing TP/LO to consider whenever or not to move to escort instead of jailor/mayor/other confirmed town that Mafia could capitalize on.
Escort doesn't have to come out, they can literally just whisper to a confirmed townie like jailor.
-SK can just stab whoever Escort roleblocks as well, adding another possible layer for TP/LO to consider and getting easy targets to stab
and what exactly does this do?
-SK will also know when they get roleblocked ahead of time, allowing them to freely make risky plays like attacking Jailor or Mayor even with TP/LO on them because they know that they'll likely be dead anyways.
-Witch can also just control Escort and make Escort actively harm town more.
we shouldn't be encouraging suicidal plays, and there is a good chance there's no witch, and again, escort can just whisper
You're adding 3/4 potential WIFOM situation to occur towards TP/LO while trying to find SK with Escort for a decent amount of risk as well
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:44 pm

any evil that sees whispering to confirmed/likely town is likely going to consider them a high priority. It might hide escort a bit longer but you're still in the major takedown pile.
---
You negate the point of finding SK by roleblock and confirming people as SK/Non-SK while getting kills and mess with medium a bit because dead gain no last info from the person dead (as they are RBed). And because more than likely they're going to be town...
---
If you're KNOW you're going to lose ahead of time (escort RBing you would confirm you as SK) why would you not make a suicide/risky play when the downside (being caught) is no longer a downside (escort reveals you as SK this night)

Every 1 in 3 games a witch will appear. Once again: any evil that sees whispering to confirmed/likely town is likely going to consider them a high priority. It might hide escort a bit longer but you're still in the major takedown pile. Including with the witch buff
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Ddynamo » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:44 pm

HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:You give SK two targets and the ability to make plays off of escort for the reward of maybe finding SK with the Escort... except.
-SK can just stab the Escort and kill the active threat (it doesn't matter if you don't bloody the will if it means you'll have a bit longer to live and make plays), forcing TP/LO to consider whenever or not to move to escort instead of jailor/mayor/other confirmed town that Mafia could capitalize on. At which point the Serial Killer loses it’s ability to double kill, rendering back to pre-nerf at the low cost of one Escort dying instead of an important town role.
-SK can just stab whoever Escort roleblocks as well, adding another possible layer for TP/LO to consider and getting easy targets to stab If the Serial Killer attacks the people who are roleblocked at night, they are attacking people in the order that the escort finds most suspcious, making it likely they’ll just be killing off the mafia.
-SK will also know when they get roleblocked ahead of time, allowing them to freely make risky plays like attacking Jailor or Mayor even with TP/LO on them because they know that they'll likely be dead anyways. A guaranteed dead Serial Killer for a rarely dead jailor is a fair trade.
-Witch can also just control Escort and make Escort actively harm town more. There's nothing the witch can do with the Escort that they can't do better by just controlling the target directly.
You're adding 3/4 potential WIFOM situation to occur towards TP/LO while trying to find SK with Escort for a decent amount of risk as well.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:57 pm

-At which point the Serial Killer loses it’s ability to double kill, rendering back to pre-nerf at the low cost of one Escort dying instead of an important town role.
Escort is really good late game and was a direct counter to SK and is still a threat to evils as a whole. I don't see how Escort isn't important, at least not to an SK that the Escort is trying to point out to the town who's goal is to kill everyone else.

-If the Serial Killer attacks the people who are roleblocked at night, they are attacking people in the order that the escort finds most suspcious, making it likely they’ll just be killing off the mafia.
While that is possible, escort is likely looking for SK directly (given that unless GF/Mafioso are dead Escort can only block RMs), and mafia have a better time and better success rate of claiming more difficult roles (take consort/blackmailer claiming a "perfect" spy for example) so escort is more likely to be roleblocking less confirmable and more "suspicious" roles

- A guaranteed dead Serial Killer for a rarely dead jailor is a fair trade.
Doesn't exactly have to be jailor in this case, it could be any confirmed role. A 2-1 is a fair trade for both evils and town. But given 2 KPNs constantly before mafia has an advantage and is more of a threat

- There's nothing the witch can do with the Escort that they can't do better by just controlling the target directly.
Directly harming two town roles (Escort by making them roleblock whoever the witch wants + Whoever the Witch makes the roleblocked target) > Directly harming one town role and a potential loss of an ally (SK) Unless Witch knows they can make a play that would bring more harm to town they should be protecting their allies (Mafia and SK) the best they can.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:17 am

or just make sk rb immune (with the choice to kill the jailor)
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby buttguy64 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:43 pm

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night.


could be a better nerf, It would make lookout a lot less valuable target.
Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).

Does this also let them regularly douse? if not then its more of a nerf, If so then quite Op.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Amiiko » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:05 am

Achilles wrote:Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night.


I have a little issue with this, because multiple LOs visiting the same target could cause one LO to see the other but not the other way around. Honestly, LOs shouldn't have been able to see each other in their visits for a long time- this has been a problem because someone could claim LO and get the other person or people that visited a killed target in hot water, especially in regards to this nerf for LO- while I do agree it was probably for the best, it doesn't help everything.
Confused, sort of, still. Prefer to play as Arsonist, Hex Master, Amnesiac, Trapper, or Consigliere. Don't judge me.

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