Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

[Chemist1422]

in the context of a traditional ranked match, this essentially makes the werewolf's wincon getting to N4 without being known which is ~fine, it's not like most werewolf games go further past that

SK having a double kill will force more caution with roleblockers which is probably a positive thing overall. or they could just call their targets beforehand and if a double kill happens then the SK gets revealed anyway so it's not that strong of a buff overall, it actually removes the reasonable doubt if they adopt this strategy (hiding roles isn't important enough in ToS so escorts calling targets is probably worth more than not doing so)

I agree with the arso change being kinda bad but I think trying to come up with an alternative is more productive than just calling it bad and complaining about how town is never going to win anymore

lookout change makes for potentially more interesting play if there's an actual priority order for roles, doubly so if killing roles are low on the priority list -- it could allow mafia to overload a target with their RM roles to keep their killer hidden

then again this is mostly conceptual since I haven't played the ranked list in probably more than a year probably, so take all this with a grain of salt

[Royee]

Another thing about the positive/negative feedback for these changes - I hope some of the most experienced players and people who used to be top elo players before the change to the ELO system should be listened to when making these changes. I strongly doubt these changes would be welcome at higher elos when evils can already win regularly with mafia plays or NK cooperating with the mafia to gain majority quickly.

There are 2 problems with what you have just said.
You do not have any statistics about high elo town/mafia winrate. Being high elo doesn't mean you can balance.

However High elos have more expirience with how the game play might turn out.

I just feel like Town W/L is gonna be substantially lower now and Ranked will just be annoying losing all the points for such.

Which is false inherently. More experience != High elo. There are 2 ways of approaching towards third party and both are fine.
NK will probably not have 50%+ winrate and barely 30.

[DFrenchBoi]

Lookout nerf could be swingy but thank god for it being semi-balanced countering jailor meta and giving mafia some easy mislynch opportunities.

Evils shouldn't have even more mislynch opportunities. Random mafia visiting the jailor or fear of an arsonist allows evils to falsely accuse spies, TPs, escorts, and even lookouts. The fact that most players don't care if they mislynch a medium since they are still useful when dead and the existence of commonly faked roles such as vigilante, sheriff, and medium again allows evils to falsely push up these roles, as well as a TI that makes a mistake by forgetting to post or a townie who doesn't cc after someone claims the same allignment they are. There are other mislynching strategies for evils, I really don't think they should get a freebie such as a lookout who can't see everyone's visit.

[TylerDurden99]

Another thing about the positive/negative feedback for these changes - I hope some of the most experienced players and people who used to be top elo players before the change to the ELO system should be listened to when making these changes. I strongly doubt these changes would be welcome at higher elos when evils can already win regularly with mafia plays or NK cooperating with the mafia to gain majority quickly.

There are 2 problems with what you have just said.
You do not have any statistics about high elo town/mafia winrate. Being high elo doesn't mean you can balance.

However High elos have more expirience with how the game play might turn out.

I just feel like Town W/L is gonna be substantially lower now and Ranked will just be annoying losing all the points for such.

Which is false inherently. More experience != High elo. There are 2 ways of approaching towards third party and both are fine.
NK will probably not have 50%+ winrate and barely 30.

What's your elo? Do you think 30% WR makes sense for someone playing against atleast 13 other players?

[Superalex11]

I just feel like Town W/L is gonna be substantially lower now

Is this not the goal? Has town's W/L not been historically (and arguably unfairly) high?


And a separate point: I'm baffled at how many people are looking at the lookout change like it'll do anything. Did those of you who believe this not read my post, or at least think about it for more than a few minutes yourselves? Even assuming a consistent priority order for seen visits, evils won't be incentivized to attack someone with a lookout on them who also has 3+ others on them. Those "others" would be the remaining TPLO, meaning the target wouldn't die anyway... And then to reiterate my point on probabilities, in literally 4 of 5 games (edit: not 4 of 5) the change will have 0 effect on seen visits. Zero. None.
Am I missing something here? Seriously, why am I seeing so many people not recognizing this?

[DFrenchBoi]

This is completely gamebreaking. Lookout might have been a strong role, but a better nerf would be reducing spawn rate, making a maximum number of lookouts, or in some way making it easier for evils to fake lookout.

That, however, is not the most gamebreaking part. An escort being killed and having their will deleted is fine for when they role block a serial killer, but the fact that the sk can now also kill another person means an SK asking for tp/lo/esc could easily get a kill. Additionally, escorts essentially CANNOT role block in an SK game or they run the risk of giving SK a double kill and losing the game.

The sk change is still not the most broken part. The arsonist changes mean that any player asking for tp/lo is going to be suspected of being arsonist. This makes evils stronger than town at this point, because any attempt to confirm roles on someone who is not the jailor or mayor (d1 mayor reveal to get TP, arsonist still douses and ignites them, d1 jailor reveal lets arsonist kill jailor, witches/consorts/bmrs run wild) will now become impossible as evils can claim TP and not go on them and just say they're scared of an arsonist, townies likely will do the same as preventing a mass ignite on night 2 will become very important. Essentially, this breaks town metas and makes the game way too easy for evils. I sincerely hope this patch is not added, it would completely destroy higher level play as almost always a non-jailor player will ask for tp/lo day 1.

The werewolf change is not too bad, it's difficult to get multiple kills in any case and living past night 4 is an accomplishment. It does mean werewolf will win a lot more NK vs Mafia scenarios in the end game but that's not too problematic.

Psychic changes don't do that much, it's already a pretty boring role.

Juggernaut changes are likely a response to people being upset they got attacked as juggernaut before they got night immunity, to that there are strategies to keep mafia away from you and also the same thing happens to jesters, townies, coven, random mafia (sk/coven), vampires, etc. The change about juggernaut was supposed to be an increased chance of spawning in game, not making the role even more powerful than it was before (vigis are ineffective). Juggernaut is already an very strong role, unstoppable attack is hugely powerful of course, this change is not really needed.

In summation, these neutral killing buffs (except juggernaut) are not good. Neutral factions are supposed to be harder because you have no teammates. These changes make it far too easy for an unskilled player to win as NK with minimal effort.

this is an account I made for the TT PTR but it's still me, I believe every word of this as I wrote it.

Another thing about the positive/negative feedback for these changes - I hope some of the most experienced players and people who used to be top elo players before the change to the ELO system should be listened to when making these changes. I strongly doubt these changes would be welcome at higher elos when evils can already win regularly with mafia plays or NK cooperating with the mafia to gain majority quickly.

There are 2 problems with what you have just said.
You do not have any statistics about high elo town/mafia winrate. Being high elo doesn't mean you can balance.

However High elos have more expirience with how the game play might turn out.

I just feel like Town W/L is gonna be substantially lower now and Ranked will just be annoying losing all the points for such.

Which is false inherently. More experience != High elo. There are 2 ways of approaching towards third party and both are fine.
NK will probably not have 50%+ winrate and barely 30.

I have two problems with this. First off, due to elo changes, higher elo DOES mean more experienced, since it's mostly based off of games played now (I don't like this change, it reduces elo to who can grind out the most points.) Secondly, NK should, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE, be at 50% winrate. This is far too high. Town wins 55-60% of games? depends on the mode, ranked is majority town wins but not ridiculous. If NK wins 30% of their games that is just broken, a 1 player faction winning 30% of games is far too high.

[alysslolinightray]

So arso is just going to be the pb but with fire and they don't have to try as hard during the end game.

[Royee]

Another thing about the positive/negative feedback for these changes - I hope some of the most experienced players and people who used to be top elo players before the change to the ELO system should be listened to when making these changes. I strongly doubt these changes would be welcome at higher elos when evils can already win regularly with mafia plays or NK cooperating with the mafia to gain majority quickly.

There are 2 problems with what you have just said.
You do not have any statistics about high elo town/mafia winrate. Being high elo doesn't mean you can balance.

However High elos have more expirience with how the game play might turn out.

I just feel like Town W/L is gonna be substantially lower now and Ranked will just be annoying losing all the points for such.

Which is false inherently. More experience != High elo. There are 2 ways of approaching towards third party and both are fine.
NK will probably not have 50%+ winrate and barely 30.

What's your elo? Do you think 30% WR makes sense for someone playing against atleast 13 other players?

I am not a competitive player. I do not care about some number which shows potentially your skill level. Which in fact in many games and even in all of them(and ToS) fails to do so. They are mostly a grind system but this if for another topic.
Your claim has logic failure( and mainly understanding). I have said ***barely*** 30. I have no clue how elo has link here in both ways.

[GabiRamo69]

[
Hi!
I am a top 25 player who makes strategies in high ELO and I am here to show exactly why these changes are a very bad idea and will break the game.
[ This is from a RANKED perspective only ]

Let me address the following first.

TOWN BEING OP IS A MYTH.
Especially now with ret change, basically impossible to win with rolelists are no more. There is no more insta-confirm for anyone except mayor. And before you go like "TRANSPORTER", "JAILOR", a good evil can 100% get away with those claims and get the real one hanged.
The real problem is that 95% of the playerbase has no idea how to play evil. They claim sheriff with ns/gf results and know nothing about voting patterns, game mechanics, multiple mafia strategies.
The average played, in fact, doesn't even use the main advantage of the mafia faction: knowing your teammates.
Winning every game as evil is possible. I repeat it is possible, except for bs rng like NK killing mafia.
I think that instead of implementing unnecessary changes we should instead focus on promoting tactics, this is supposed to be a strategy game after all right? I'd suggest making gameplay highlights like many other games do.

That set aside, let's get into why the NK changes are not ideal whatsoever.
-----------THE WW CHANGE-----------------
You are essentially nuking the entire concept for "late game" and ending every single game by N5.
I repeat, this is a strategy game, or so it should be. By making the game shorter by default you are forcing players into choosing from less and less plays to make, making the game more predictable and less strategy oriented.
Let me set the scene for everyone.
N1- No WW attack N2- ATTACK N3- No N4- ATTACK N5- ATTACK N6-ATTACK
( I chose 6 nights because that is the average duration of a ranked game as of now)
Remember that WW also has his passive.
As of right now, without those changes, WW still gets 4-5 person kills sometimes. Just imagine the mess which every single ww game would be with this change.


----------THE ARSO CHANGE-----------------
This change would essentially destroy the tp/lo/esc/spy meta. But this also allows for rng bs games where because of a RANDOM N1 VISIT either the evils (by dousing an evil) or townies are going to lose the game when arso has that extra ignite on them. ( Yes, I am aware that arso will know who is doused and could stop from igniting if he knows another evil is doused, but that is assuming he figures that, and even if he does, hard delaying the ignite will obviously also affect evils).

----------THE SK CHANGE---------------------
Ah, yes, more rng bs. Just imagine that an esc rbs sk n1, those are 3 dead townies by D2 assuming mafia also gets a kill and sk hits a townie.
That would be equilibrium aka 6v6 by d2.
Evils WILL win in that situation.
Townies have LIMITED killing power, meanwhile evils don't. Doesn't take too much thinking to realize what the most likely outcome is.


Also LO is a perfectly balanced role and this change makes no sense in the context of those other ones which were mentioned. The LO change was made to nerf the tp/lo/esc/spy meta, but there was clearly no need for that with that arso rework which basically makes continuing using it impossible.

PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THOSE CHANGES. THEY WILL BREAK RANKED.

Here is an actual good balance change( I will come back with more info on this later )
Replace NE and NK with 2 more mafia.
9 townies 6 mafia.
NE is straight up luck based and NK is a wildcard which you are clearly trying to change anyways. Make your own lives easier, just remove it from ranked. Make the game more high skill cap and allow mafia to make more plays. This also means that players will get to be maf a lot more and will be forced to start actually trying as evil.
There are a lot of advantages to this change, as I said, I will be back on this subject later.

Listen to your ranked players please ^^

- Oxy

[CrimsonKatana]

I think the goal should be to make the game balanced for scenarios when everyone is playing flawlessly and as best as they can rather than for scenarios where people are playing poorly... The reason why town win rate is high is because most people are just bad at evils while the game is actually pretty balanced when everyone is playing flawlessly while the slight changes that Tylerdurden99 said could be good for that... If you want to beat players that aren't flawless then you just need to be better than them and if you want to win an all flawless match up you need a game that is actually balanced

---------LISTEN TO OXY SHES HIGH ELO

[TheNoobZeKo]

[
Hi!
I am a top 25 player who makes strategies in high ELO and I am here to show exactly why these changes are a very bad idea and will break the game.
[ This is from a RANKED perspective only ]

Let me address the following first.

TOWN BEING OP IS A MYTH.
Especially now with ret change, basically impossible to win with rolelists are no more. There is no more insta-confirm for anyone except mayor. And before you go like "TRANSPORTER", "JAILOR", a good evil can 100% get away with those claims and get the real one hanged.
The real problem is that 95% of the playerbase has no idea how to play evil. They claim sheriff with ns/gf results and know nothing about voting patterns, game mechanics, multiple mafia strategies.
The average played, in fact, doesn't even use the main advantage of the mafia faction: knowing your teammates.
Winning every game as evil is possible. I repeat it is possible, except for bs rng like NK killing mafia.
I think that instead of implementing unnecessary changes we should instead focus on promoting tactics, this is supposed to be a strategy game after all right? I'd suggest making gameplay highlights like many other games do.

That set aside, let's get into why the NK changes are not ideal whatsoever.
-----------THE WW CHANGE-----------------
You are essentially nuking the entire concept for "late game" and ending every single game by N5.
I repeat, this is a strategy game, or so it should be. By making the game shorter by default you are forcing players into choosing from less and less plays to make, making the game more predictable and less strategy oriented.
Let me set the scene for everyone.
N1- No WW attack N2- ATTACK N3- No N4- ATTACK N5- ATTACK N6-ATTACK
( I chose 6 nights because that is the average duration of a ranked game as of now)
Remember that WW also has his passive.
As of right now, without those changes, WW still gets 4-5 person kills sometimes. Just imagine the mess which every single ww game would be with this change.


----------THE ARSO CHANGE-----------------
This change would essentially destroy the tp/lo/esc/spy meta. But this also allows for rng bs games where because of a RANDOM N1 VISIT either the evils (by dousing an evil) or townies are going to lose the game when arso has that extra ignite on them. ( Yes, I am aware that arso will know who is doused and could stop from igniting if he knows another evil is doused, but that is assuming he figures that, and even if he does, hard delaying the ignite will obviously also affect evils).

----------THE SK CHANGE---------------------
Ah, yes, more rng bs. Just imagine that an esc rbs sk n1, those are 3 dead townies by D2 assuming mafia also gets a kill and sk hits a townie.
That would be equilibrium aka 6v6 by d2.
Evils WILL win in that situation.
Townies have LIMITED killing power, meanwhile evils don't. Doesn't take too much thinking to realize what the most likely outcome is.


Also LO is a perfectly balanced role and this change makes no sense in the context of those other ones which were mentioned. The LO change was made to nerf the tp/lo/esc/spy meta, but there was clearly no need for that with that arso rework which basically makes continuing using it impossible.

PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THOSE CHANGES. THEY WILL BREAK RANKED.

Here is an actual good balance change( I will come back with more info on this later )
Replace NE and NK with 2 more mafia.
9 townies 6 mafia.
NE is straight up luck based and NK is a wildcard which you are clearly trying to change anyways. Make your own lives easier, just remove it from ranked. Make the game more high skill cap and allow mafia to make more plays. This also means that players will get to be maf a lot more and will be forced to start actually trying as evil.
There are a lot of advantages to this change, as I said, I will be back on this subject later.

Listen to your ranked players please ^^

- Oxy

This is exactly what we want

[Chemist1422]

werewolf being a timebomb seems more of a feature than a flaw to me and it's not even an instant loss

agree on the arso change being bad

SK change isn't particularly dangerous, especially if escorts adopt their play to play around it (not randomly blocking, calling targets, whatever creative things people can come up with)

9v6 really does not work numerically because I requires town to be either perfect on dayplay and above average with nightplay or get supported by night actions which are essentially random earlygame

[tuulekuninganna]

[
Hi!
I am a top 25 player who makes strategies in high ELO and I am here to show exactly why these changes are a very bad idea and will break the game.
[ This is from a RANKED perspective only ]

Let me address the following first.

TOWN BEING OP IS A MYTH.
Especially now with ret change, basically impossible to win with rolelists are no more. There is no more insta-confirm for anyone except mayor. And before you go like "TRANSPORTER", "JAILOR", a good evil can 100% get away with those claims and get the real one hanged.
The real problem is that 95% of the playerbase has no idea how to play evil. They claim sheriff with ns/gf results and know nothing about voting patterns, game mechanics, multiple mafia strategies.
The average played, in fact, doesn't even use the main advantage of the mafia faction: knowing your teammates.
Winning every game as evil is possible. I repeat it is possible, except for bs rng like NK killing mafia.
I think that instead of implementing unnecessary changes we should instead focus on promoting tactics, this is supposed to be a strategy game after all right? I'd suggest making gameplay highlights like many other games do.

That set aside, let's get into why the NK changes are not ideal whatsoever.
-----------THE WW CHANGE-----------------
You are essentially nuking the entire concept for "late game" and ending every single game by N5.
I repeat, this is a strategy game, or so it should be. By making the game shorter by default you are forcing players into choosing from less and less plays to make, making the game more predictable and less strategy oriented.
Let me set the scene for everyone.
N1- No WW attack N2- ATTACK N3- No N4- ATTACK N5- ATTACK N6-ATTACK
( I chose 6 nights because that is the average duration of a ranked game as of now)
Remember that WW also has his passive.
As of right now, without those changes, WW still gets 4-5 person kills sometimes. Just imagine the mess which every single ww game would be with this change.


----------THE ARSO CHANGE-----------------
This change would essentially destroy the tp/lo/esc/spy meta. But this also allows for rng bs games where because of a RANDOM N1 VISIT either the evils (by dousing an evil) or townies are going to lose the game when arso has that extra ignite on them. ( Yes, I am aware that arso will know who is doused and could stop from igniting if he knows another evil is doused, but that is assuming he figures that, and even if he does, hard delaying the ignite will obviously also affect evils).

----------THE SK CHANGE---------------------
Ah, yes, more rng bs. Just imagine that an esc rbs sk n1, those are 3 dead townies by D2 assuming mafia also gets a kill and sk hits a townie.
That would be equilibrium aka 6v6 by d2.
Evils WILL win in that situation.
Townies have LIMITED killing power, meanwhile evils don't. Doesn't take too much thinking to realize what the most likely outcome is.


Also LO is a perfectly balanced role and this change makes no sense in the context of those other ones which were mentioned. The LO change was made to nerf the tp/lo/esc/spy meta, but there was clearly no need for that with that arso rework which basically makes continuing using it impossible.

PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THOSE CHANGES. THEY WILL BREAK RANKED.

Here is an actual good balance change( I will come back with more info on this later )
Replace NE and NK with 2 more mafia.
9 townies 6 mafia.
NE is straight up luck based and NK is a wildcard which you are clearly trying to change anyways. Make your own lives easier, just remove it from ranked. Make the game more high skill cap and allow mafia to make more plays. This also means that players will get to be maf a lot more and will be forced to start actually trying as evil.
There are a lot of advantages to this change, as I said, I will be back on this subject later.

Listen to your ranked players please ^^

- Oxy

I agree with this and TheFrenchBandits posts and I think you all should if you try thinking logically from ranked perspective.

[DFrenchBoi]

[
Hi!
I am a top 25 player who makes strategies in high ELO and I am here to show exactly why these changes are a very bad idea and will break the game.
[ This is from a RANKED perspective only ]

Let me address the following first.

TOWN BEING OP IS A MYTH.
Especially now with ret change, basically impossible to win with rolelists are no more. There is no more insta-confirm for anyone except mayor. And before you go like "TRANSPORTER", "JAILOR", a good evil can 100% get away with those claims and get the real one hanged.
The real problem is that 95% of the playerbase has no idea how to play evil. They claim sheriff with ns/gf results and know nothing about voting patterns, game mechanics, multiple mafia strategies.
The average played, in fact, doesn't even use the main advantage of the mafia faction: knowing your teammates.
Winning every game as evil is possible. I repeat it is possible, except for bs rng like NK killing mafia.
I think that instead of implementing unnecessary changes we should instead focus on promoting tactics, this is supposed to be a strategy game after all right? I'd suggest making gameplay highlights like many other games do.

That set aside, let's get into why the NK changes are not ideal whatsoever.
-----------THE WW CHANGE-----------------
You are essentially nuking the entire concept for "late game" and ending every single game by N5.
I repeat, this is a strategy game, or so it should be. By making the game shorter by default you are forcing players into choosing from less and less plays to make, making the game more predictable and less strategy oriented.
Let me set the scene for everyone.
N1- No WW attack N2- ATTACK N3- No N4- ATTACK N5- ATTACK N6-ATTACK
( I chose 6 nights because that is the average duration of a ranked game as of now)
Remember that WW also has his passive.
As of right now, without those changes, WW still gets 4-5 person kills sometimes. Just imagine the mess which every single ww game would be with this change.


----------THE ARSO CHANGE-----------------
This change would essentially destroy the tp/lo/esc/spy meta. But this also allows for rng bs games where because of a RANDOM N1 VISIT either the evils (by dousing an evil) or townies are going to lose the game when arso has that extra ignite on them. ( Yes, I am aware that arso will know who is doused and could stop from igniting if he knows another evil is doused, but that is assuming he figures that, and even if he does, hard delaying the ignite will obviously also affect evils).

----------THE SK CHANGE---------------------
Ah, yes, more rng bs. Just imagine that an esc rbs sk n1, those are 3 dead townies by D2 assuming mafia also gets a kill and sk hits a townie.
That would be equilibrium aka 6v6 by d2.
Evils WILL win in that situation.
Townies have LIMITED killing power, meanwhile evils don't. Doesn't take too much thinking to realize what the most likely outcome is.


Also LO is a perfectly balanced role and this change makes no sense in the context of those other ones which were mentioned. The LO change was made to nerf the tp/lo/esc/spy meta, but there was clearly no need for that with that arso rework which basically makes continuing using it impossible.

PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THOSE CHANGES. THEY WILL BREAK RANKED.

Here is an actual good balance change( I will come back with more info on this later )
Replace NE and NK with 2 more mafia.
9 townies 6 mafia.
NE is straight up luck based and NK is a wildcard which you are clearly trying to change anyways. Make your own lives easier, just remove it from ranked. Make the game more high skill cap and allow mafia to make more plays. This also means that players will get to be maf a lot more and will be forced to start actually trying as evil.
There are a lot of advantages to this change, as I said, I will be back on this subject later.

Listen to your ranked players please ^^

- Oxy

I 100% agree with Oxy's statements on the ranked changes. NK would just become too strong, lookout is fine since evils can and do fake lookout, with varying degrees of success. Removing NK is an idea, which would also warrant an increase in mafia killing power. I've seen people suggest adding ambusher to ranked, well, this would be the time to do it. Removing NE is also possible, but to make sure this works well RMs would also need buffs such as framer, disguiser, and forger. 6 mafia would be very interesting, this might warrant lengthening night 1 since 6 people will need more time to coordinate than 1. This can also fix the problem of NK not doing anything because they think it's best to be silent despite the fact that getting no kills means it's harder to make town lose majority or a greedy arsonist who goes for 3/4 douses and end up getting hung before they do anything.

Balancing the game is hard but the buffs to NK and the lookout nerf just don't make sense for doing that. Weakening ret was a step in the right direction, but this is not.

[Kass1818]

[
Hi!
I am a top 25 player who makes strategies in high ELO and I am here to show exactly why these changes are a very bad idea and will break the game.
[ This is from a RANKED perspective only ]

Let me address the following first.

TOWN BEING OP IS A MYTH.
Especially now with ret change, basically impossible to win with rolelists are no more. There is no more insta-confirm for anyone except mayor. And before you go like "TRANSPORTER", "JAILOR", a good evil can 100% get away with those claims and get the real one hanged.
The real problem is that 95% of the playerbase has no idea how to play evil. They claim sheriff with ns/gf results and know nothing about voting patterns, game mechanics, multiple mafia strategies.
The average played, in fact, doesn't even use the main advantage of the mafia faction: knowing your teammates.
Winning every game as evil is possible. I repeat it is possible, except for bs rng like NK killing mafia.
I think that instead of implementing unnecessary changes we should instead focus on promoting tactics, this is supposed to be a strategy game after all right? I'd suggest making gameplay highlights like many other games do.

That set aside, let's get into why the NK changes are not ideal whatsoever.
-----------THE WW CHANGE-----------------
You are essentially nuking the entire concept for "late game" and ending every single game by N5.
I repeat, this is a strategy game, or so it should be. By making the game shorter by default you are forcing players into choosing from less and less plays to make, making the game more predictable and less strategy oriented.
Let me set the scene for everyone.
N1- No WW attack N2- ATTACK N3- No N4- ATTACK N5- ATTACK N6-ATTACK
( I chose 6 nights because that is the average duration of a ranked game as of now)
Remember that WW also has his passive.
As of right now, without those changes, WW still gets 4-5 person kills sometimes. Just imagine the mess which every single ww game would be with this change.


----------THE ARSO CHANGE-----------------
This change would essentially destroy the tp/lo/esc/spy meta. But this also allows for rng bs games where because of a RANDOM N1 VISIT either the evils (by dousing an evil) or townies are going to lose the game when arso has that extra ignite on them. ( Yes, I am aware that arso will know who is doused and could stop from igniting if he knows another evil is doused, but that is assuming he figures that, and even if he does, hard delaying the ignite will obviously also affect evils).

----------THE SK CHANGE---------------------
Ah, yes, more rng bs. Just imagine that an esc rbs sk n1, those are 3 dead townies by D2 assuming mafia also gets a kill and sk hits a townie.
That would be equilibrium aka 6v6 by d2.
Evils WILL win in that situation.
Townies have LIMITED killing power, meanwhile evils don't. Doesn't take too much thinking to realize what the most likely outcome is.


Also LO is a perfectly balanced role and this change makes no sense in the context of those other ones which were mentioned. The LO change was made to nerf the tp/lo/esc/spy meta, but there was clearly no need for that with that arso rework which basically makes continuing using it impossible.

PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THOSE CHANGES. THEY WILL BREAK RANKED.

Here is an actual good balance change( I will come back with more info on this later )
Replace NE and NK with 2 more mafia.
9 townies 6 mafia.
NE is straight up luck based and NK is a wildcard which you are clearly trying to change anyways. Make your own lives easier, just remove it from ranked. Make the game more high skill cap and allow mafia to make more plays. This also means that players will get to be maf a lot more and will be forced to start actually trying as evil.
There are a lot of advantages to this change, as I said, I will be back on this subject later.

Listen to your ranked players please ^^

- Oxy

AGREED...I think these changes are going to break the game and make less people want to play it. Also listen to the MORE EXPERIENCED RANKED PLAYERS please !!!

[Chemist1422]

if the concern with arso is that it doesn't get enough douses fast enough, i would let it douse roleblockers (this should have been a thing from the start frankly) and douse+ignite on the same night once per game

[AshedPainting]

Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night.
All this does is make it so LO can confirm 3 townies if they are on the Jailor, not much of a Nerf to Jailor Meta, also adds RNG

Psychic will work the same but not have its alternating nights tied into full moon nights.

Neutral Killing Buffs
SerialKiller will not be stopped from attacking it's target by roleblocks. This allows for a double kill (the roleblocker and the SK target being attacked in the same night). Additionally when a SerialKiller kills a roleblocker, the last will of the roleblocker will be covered in blood, preventing it from being readable.
The clearing of wills thing is nice, but 2 kills in one night? I don't know how i think about that

Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).
No No NO NO, fist of all, this is absolutely absurd, it means that Arso now can ignite by as early as Day 3 potentially, especially in All Any, secondly, this makes it near impossible for a Witch to side with the Arsonist, since they'll be doused if they find out their identity, i think that roleblock immunity is a better change

Werewolf - After night 4 every night will be a full moon night
Ehhhh, ok i guess

Juggernaut - Juggernaut will now have basic defense. Rampaging and Unstoppable attack upgrades now require 1 less kill to unlock.

I feel like the Basic defense buff should be replaced with roleblock or control immunity, but this is fine

[Fotache]

The Lookout nerf is horrible. Out of everyone who visits the Jailor N1 the Lookout will only see 3 of them - so If a Spy confirms that RM visited the Jailor N1, the Town is supposed to hang the 3 visitors that from the LO's will and pray that the RNG gave away the RM's name? I don't see how such a change will improve the gameplay.


The Arsonist buff (automatically dousing anyone who visits him) is even worse. What if I'm Witch and control the Arsonist N1? I should try my best to prevent him from igniting so that I don't die? There's no way a Witch can side the Arsonist once they know they're doused. Same applies to Consigliere, you want the Arsonist to ignite the Jailor N2 but if you find him N1 you should give up that plan and try to get the Arsonist killed? At the end of the day, no matter how many people are doused, the Consort can easily hard counter the Arsonist in late game by constantly roleblocking him. Just give Arsonist roleblock immunity and maybe even control immunity, this is a buff that the Arsonist needs.

[Arsland]

Appreciated the effort for tackling the jailor tplo meta, but personally I don't really buy it.

SK and arso are too strong. Town would easily lose majority by Day 3 without even trying. Werewolf is okay. Arso is the worst one. These are all very well and descriptively mentioned from most of the posts above, so I don't elaborate more.
Lookout and Psychic reworks are very unnecessary. I think these two roles are already good as they are.

Here's my humble opinion. What evils need right now is having RT claim space, for instance, limiting TS role spawns, adding mafia role like hypnotist to ranked to encourage mafia plays and transporter from easily confirmed, etc. As for the jailor tplo meta, I like the mafioso astral attack idea. In addition, arso igniting jailor N2 is already a counter.

Also, buffing mafia would be an indirect buff for NK as well. NK isn't really the top priority regarding balancing. So instead of breaking NK's ability, maybe address the limited RT spots problem and adding astral attack for mafioso would be a good anecdote to both jailor meta and balancing issues.

[tuulekuninganna]

Appreciated the effort for tackling the jailor tplo meta, but personally I don't really buy it.

SK and arso are too strong. Town would easily lose majority by Day 3 without even trying. Werewolf is okay. Arso is the worst one. These are all very well and descriptively mentioned from most of the posts above, so I don't elaborate more.
Lookout and Psychic reworks are very unnecessary. I think these two roles are already good as they are.

Here's my humble opinion. What evils need right now is having RT claim space, for instance, limiting TS role spawns, adding mafia role like hypnotist to ranked to encourage mafia plays and transporter from easily confirmed, etc. As for the jailor tplo meta, I like the mafioso astral attack idea. In addition, arso igniting jailor N2 is already a counter.

Also, buffing mafia would be an indirect buff for NK as well. NK isn't really the top priority regarding balancing. So instead of breaking NK's ability, maybe address the limited RT spots problem and adding astral attack for mafioso would be a good anecdote to both jailor meta and balancing issues.

That's also really well stated and would help to buff evils without making them op<3

[Chemist1422]

Appreciated the effort for tackling the jailor tplo meta, but personally I don't really buy it.

SK and arso are too strong. Town would easily lose majority by Day 3 without even trying. Werewolf is okay. Arso is the worst one. These are all very well and descriptively mentioned from most of the posts above, so I don't elaborate more.
Lookout and Psychic reworks are very unnecessary. I think these two roles are already good as they are.

Here's my humble opinion. What evils need right now is having RT claim space, for instance, limiting TS role spawns, adding mafia role like hypnotist to ranked to encourage mafia plays and transporter from easily confirmed, etc. As for the jailor tplo meta, I like the mafioso astral attack idea. In addition, arso igniting jailor N2 is already a counter.

Also, buffing mafia would be an indirect buff for NK as well. NK isn't really the top priority regarding balancing. So instead of breaking NK's ability, maybe address the limited RT spots problem and adding astral attack for mafioso would be a good anecdote to both jailor meta and balancing issues.

psychic isn't even a rework it's just editing its mechanics to ensure the role doesn't change with the werewolf rework and lookout is pretty strong for confirming roles, the rework helps limit that

I think a list change to give evils more claimspace is good, I do think mafia buffs will help as well

[DFrenchBoi]

Something I would like to see is a change to the spam rules. Good players get banned or suspended because they break an arbitrary number (5 per phase/15 whole game). I think spam punishments should be lessened. Capping suspension lengths for people who "spam" to get a vote guiltied, innod, or make sure every townie understands what you're trying to say would also be good. This should not be for people who spam hate speech, ridiculous or irrelevant things, or move the chat so fast it is TRULY unreadable, not just "they used hyphens and I don't want to scroll up." Additionally, adding a reconnect button would allow for players to actually be punished for leaving the game or afking (in rare cases someone's internet may completely go out, not sure what yet to do about that). Once a reconnect button is added, people who do not claim in jail or do not claim on the stand as a non-jester player can actually be punished and banned since they can no longer claim to have crashed. Finally, alerting as a veteran after asking for tp/lo or claiming jailor SHOULD BECOME BANNABLE. It might work in rare cases but many times it backfires and destroys the game for town.

[Fourteen]

If witch finds the Arsonist early, they will have no choice but to continue witching the Arsonist. This will ruin the game for both neutral roles. If the witch doesn't do so, they essentially forfeit the game.

This is a simple fix. The witch's protection against the first basic attack should also apply to douses, not just basic attacks.

[emslaya]

Very much looking forward to the patch!!

The retri rework was really nice and I think WW/Arso are going to be a LOT more fun to play once this patch goes live tbh.

Even though Arso might be a lot more fun to play with this patch, it also ends up becoming too similar to pest in some ways I think. Multi Arso games after the patch might also end too quickly/be less fun so it might be worth considering making Arso a unique role if you're going to give it all of these buffs.

I think the SK/Jugg reworks are fine tbh as well. It always sucks when you die N1 as a Jugg considering how rare the role is, so giving the role basic defense is totally fine imo. I also really want that Jugg vs Pest achievement and because of it I'm also fine with Juggs becoming fully upgraded faster haha. The SK-roleblock kill rework should create some interesting new strategies/meta ideas and I'm excited to see what the playerbase comes up with to work around it.

I'll have to see the LO rework in practice before I can tell you if I fully support it or not. On one hand, LO games (esp multi LO games) make it very hard for evils to fake certain roles and the rework will help that issue. On the other hand..... it's going to totally mess with the TPLO ask+confirm strategy and I'm equally nervous and excited to see how that would impact games. We'll have to wait and see, but I'm leaning towards the rework being a positive tbh.

PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THOSE CHANGES. THEY WILL BREAK RANKED.

Yeah, while I support the reworks the Dev team is looking to do, it would probably be a good idea to end the current ranked season and wait to roll out these reworks so that they go live at the same time the next ranked season begins. (I'm also a bit biased here as I've grown bored of ranked now that I'm master elo and have no higher level to strive for and as someone who only started playing ToS in Spring 2019, I REALLY want those Ranked Master ELO prizes!! )

[cob709]

please lets put an end to this season

i have like 540 elo