Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

[Amiiko]

Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night.

I have a little issue with this, because multiple LOs visiting the same target could cause one LO to see the other but not the other way around. Honestly, LOs shouldn't have been able to see each other in their visits for a long time- this has been a problem because someone could claim LO and get the other person or people that visited a killed target in hot water, especially in regards to this nerf for LO- while I do agree it was probably for the best, it doesn't help everything.

[Venusupreme]

I’m going to say this again because it is extremely important. PLEASE do not turn Lookout into an RNG based role. Instead, if you want to nerf LO, just allow Forger to have a second night option where they can serve as a Mafia LO instead of forging if they so choose.

This way, LO becomes much much much harder to confirm, and the TPs confirming themselves on the jailor run the risk of all revealing themselves to mafia more often. This fix not only nerfs an overpowered town role, but buffs an underpowered mafia role.


Please please please listen to people like me, and don’t take advice on how to balance the game from people who don’t play ranked.

Also, SK shouldn’t be able to kill 2 people per night when roleblocked, even with the ability to clean wills (unless he was roleblocked multiple times in that night, as is the case now). And don’t forget to remove self-transportations and make jailor unable to jail the same person 2 nights in a row.

[delaware22]

Wouldn't it be much more straightforward for the Serial Killer to automatically clean their kills janitor-style, but counterbalance this nerf not allow them to kill N1 UNLESS it was a reflexive kill (jail or RB).

Serial Killer already speeds up the game dramatically by allowing a kill every night. A multikill ability just augments that problem. I understand that the SK has too many lose conditions and removing Escorts detection ability solves that. so yun

The additional bonus is that the NK that is being rolled will rarely ever be known by D2.

[Brilliand]

I’m going to say this again because it is extremely important. PLEASE do not turn Lookout into an RNG based role. Instead, if you want to nerf LO, just allow Forger to have a second night option where they can serve as a Mafia LO instead of forging if they so choose.

I think the correct way to make Lookout not RNG (while still nerfing it) is to make it see no names at all (only a count) when 3 or more other people visit its target.

Give the Forger lookout powers seems too out of place relative to the Forger's other abilities, though adding the Osservatore (a dedicated Mafia Lookout) to the game would be good.

Please please please listen to people like me, and don’t take advice on how to balance the game from people who don’t play ranked.

I think these questions are supposed to be decided by good arguments, not "don't listen to those other people, they don't have the credentials."

Not that "people who play Ranked at all" is a particularly impressive credential...

Also, SK shouldn’t be able to kill 2 people per night when roleblocked, even with the ability to clean wills (unless he was roleblocked multiple times in that night, as is the case now). And don’t forget to remove self-transportations and make jailor unable to jail the same person 2 nights in a row.

Yeah, others have made this point about the SK; I'm convinced.

You may be right about Transporter, but that deserves a thread of its own, as there are other good ideas.

The Jailor thing is definitely needed, and already decided on; I hope it makes it into the next patch.

[OreCreeper]

I’m going to say this again because it is extremely important. PLEASE do not turn Lookout into an RNG based role. Instead, if you want to nerf LO, just allow Forger to have a second night option where they can serve as a Mafia LO instead of forging if they so choose.

I think the correct way to make Lookout not RNG (while still nerfing it) is to make it see no names at all (only a count) when 3 or more other people visit its target.

Give the Forger lookout powers seems too out of place relative to the Forger's other abilities, though adding the Osservatore (a dedicated Mafia Lookout) to the game would be good.

Osservatore is useless as shit please don't add it, literally trash outside of the TP/LO meta. Giving forger the LO ability could be considered, but I think making it seeing no names at all just kills the entire point of lookout.

Please please please listen to people like me, and don’t take advice on how to balance the game from people who don’t play ranked.

I think these questions are supposed to be decided by good arguments, not "don't listen to those other people, they don't have the credentials."

Not that "people who play Ranked at all" is a particularly impressive credential...

Also, SK shouldn’t be able to kill 2 people per night when roleblocked, even with the ability to clean wills (unless he was roleblocked multiple times in that night, as is the case now). And don’t forget to remove self-transportations and make jailor unable to jail the same person 2 nights in a row.

Yeah, others have made this point about the SK; I'm convinced.

Easy make SK rb immune and choose to attack jailor/pirate or not

You may be right about Transporter, but that deserves a thread of its own, as there are other good ideas.

The Jailor thing is definitely needed, and already decided on; I hope it makes it into the next patch.

[Brilliand]

adding the Osservatore (a dedicated Mafia Lookout) to the game would be good.

Osservatore is useless as shit please don't add it, literally trash outside of the TP/LO meta.

Hm? It looks to me like Osservatore would be about on par with Consigliere outside the tp/lo meta. It gives you quite a few hints about who is which role each night, easily as good as a clear answer about only one person imo. (And knowing what night strategy people are following is nice in its own way, above and beyond the Consigliere thing.)

I think the correct way to make Lookout not RNG (while still nerfing it) is to make it see no names at all (only a count) when 3 or more other people visit its target.

I think making it seeing no names at all just kills the entire point of lookout.

"When 3 or more other people visit its target." This is meant to be the "too many visitors" failure mode, not something that affects Lookout all the time.

[OreCreeper]

adding the Osservatore (a dedicated Mafia Lookout) to the game would be good.

Osservatore is useless as shit please don't add it, literally trash outside of the TP/LO meta.

Hm? It looks to me like Osservatore would be about on par with Consigliere outside the tp/lo meta. It gives you quite a few hints about who is which role each night, easily as good as a clear answer about only one person imo. (And knowing what night strategy people are following is nice in its own way, above and beyond the Consigliere thing.)
Not really. It can't really do anything that consig can do better. Consig tells you the direct role of a person, and with Osserv there is a good chance that you'd be spending a lot of your nights not gathering much info because you got unlucky with the people you chose to watch. Also it can't find important non-visiting roles like Mayor or Retributionist.

I think the correct way to make Lookout not RNG (while still nerfing it) is to make it see no names at all (only a count) when 3 or more other people visit its target.

I think making it seeing no names at all just kills the entire point of lookout.

"When 3 or more other people visit its target." This is meant to be the "too many visitors" failure mode, not something that affects Lookout all the time.
Why does lookout even need a change anyway the role does it's job perfectly and isn't super OP like old ret or anything

[Brilliand]

Not really. It can't really do anything that consig can do better. Consig tells you the direct role of a person, and with Osserv there is a good chance that you'd be spending a lot of your nights not gathering much info because you got unlucky with the people you chose to watch. Also it can't find important non-visiting roles like Mayor or Retributionist.

Osservatore can find several people at once, and can check people by visit target instead of by name. Sometimes that's better.

Also, Osservatore always sees who his primary target visited, so he'll never get no info due to being unlucky. Usually you can narrow someone's role down to just a few based on who they visited.

Why does lookout even need a change anyway the role does it's job perfectly and isn't super OP like old ret or anything

Not as OP as Ret was, but still OP. It's highly confirmable, and can quickly confirm other townies.

Also, the tp/lo meta is really the Lookout meta. The Lookout is the main role that makes the tp/lo meta work.

[OreCreeper]

Not really. It can't really do anything that consig can do better. Consig tells you the direct role of a person, and with Osserv there is a good chance that you'd be spending a lot of your nights not gathering much info because you got unlucky with the people you chose to watch. Also it can't find important non-visiting roles like Mayor or Retributionist.

Osservatore can find several people at once, and can check people by visit target instead of by name. Sometimes that's better.

Also, Osservatore always sees who his primary target visited, so he'll never get no info due to being unlucky. Usually you can narrow someone's role down to just a few based on who they visited.

Oh if that's the case it's not as useless but still not super great. It suffers from the problems of consig but somewhat more severely.

Why does lookout even need a change anyway the role does it's job perfectly and isn't super OP like old ret or anything

Not as OP as Ret was, but still OP. It's highly confirmable, and can quickly confirm other townies.

Also, the tp/lo meta is really the Lookout meta. The Lookout is the main role that makes the tp/lo meta work.

It's powerful, but not necessarily OP. Yes it can confirm a lot of roles through the meta, but the meta is not that hard to counter. All it takes is an RM visiting the jailor to unconfirm any TPs/Escorts. Spies will always be easily confirmable because of its bug ability, and the current change has a minimal impact on Lookout's confirmability as seeing 3 people basically confirms the Lookout. I don't think LO needs nerfs though, and the meta isnt necessarily a problem. There are counters for it, and it's not like anyone other than RM or Arsonist should ever be claiming TP.

[BasuKun]

I think the correct way to make Lookout not RNG (while still nerfing it) is to make it see no names at all (only a count) when 3 or more other people visit its target.

I had the exact same thought and had posted this in Role Ideas a few days ago (I was mistakenly under the impression that this patch went live as we received the patch notes in an official popup on mobile, as if it was out).

I 100% support this. It's a good way to nerf the LO and Jailor Meta without having to rely on RNG (please PLEASE don't rely on RNG). Jailors would no longer be able to ask for escort and spy on them d1 as it will most likely result in busting out the LO's visit quota, thus opening up claim space for Consorts and BMers, and even opens up more anti-meta strats like sending a RM or 2 on Jailor N1 hoping to bust out the LO's quota, making them waste precious time to confirm TPs and other LOs.

It would be a damn good change. Personally I'd even vote to not even inform the LO of how many people visited his target above 3. A simple message like "You noticed too many people visiting your target and didn't have time to identify them" above 3 visits and we'd be golden.

Also why I'm here, might as well mention my other concern about these changes: the witch now would never be able to team up with the arso, as visiting him (thus finding him) would immediately douse her. I'd say she should probably have a one-time douse invulnerability, the same way she has one defense for attacks. I'd even give her more douse invulnerability, but as someone else in my thread pointed out, I guess that would make her completely unkillable by arso, which shouldn't happen in case she openly claims to side with maf and arso needs to get rid of her.

[hissingwillows]

Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night.
Why? This seems like a totally random number and doesn't make sense to me. If a town only has one TP, he can confirm that person every night, but if they have over 3 TP/lo/other visits it doesn't show all of them? How does the game decide who it shows? Is this random? This nerf just seems silly and is completely dependent on the types of roles and how many people are visiting at a time. It'll never be a nerf if the visits are 3 or less, but will be confusing if visits get any higher.
Psychic will work the same but not have its alternating nights tied into full moon nights.

Neutral Killing Buffs
SerialKiller will not be stopped from attacking it's target by roleblocks. This allows for a double kill (the roleblocker and the SK target being attacked in the same night). Additionally when a SerialKiller kills a roleblocker, the last will of the roleblocker will be covered in blood, preventing it from being readable.
I actually like this. It's too easy when an sk is outed by getting rbed - super frustrating as serial killer, and when I'm town I just feel bad (especially on d2 when this happens).

Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).
This also seems useful, arso can be really slow to get going and I rarely see an arso win.

Werewolf - After night 4 every night will be a full moon night
Again, like this! The nks, especially arso and WW, can be slow to kill and this can be a game-ender later in the game.

[HAWAIIANpikachu]

And they're out.

[cob709]

Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

[Venusupreme]

When I said "people like me" I was referring to people like myself who not only play ranked, but also play other modes as well, with an account that's over 5 years old. Playing ranked alone isn't enough of a credential. We have plenty of idiots and trolls here, you don't have to remind me.

My point is just that I know what I'm talking about. I had already provided good explanations for all my suggestions (except the ones which were obvious on their own) so my pointing out my own credibility was just the cherry on top of my already solid argument.

[Venusupreme]

Give the Forger lookout powers seems too out of place relative to the Forger's other abilities, though adding the Osservatore (a dedicated Mafia Lookout) to the game would be good.

See, the problem with that is that if you make a new role, Forger stays as bad as it is now. Not to mention that you'd have to add it into an Investigator result and whatnot...

[Venusupreme]

Please please please listen to people like me, and don’t take advice on how to balance the game from people who don’t play ranked.

I think these questions are supposed to be decided by good arguments, not "don't listen to those other people, they don't have the credentials."

Not that "people who play Ranked at all" is a particularly impressive credential...

lol

master elo r some of the worst players renowned for gamethrowing and trolling

ranked is a cesspool of narcissism

Funny thing is that I have tried to explain to BMG/Trials how the issue with throwing/trolling not being against the rules could be fixed. Guess how well that went?

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

Funny thing is that I have tried to explain to BMG/Trials how the issue with throwing/trolling not being against the rules could be fixed. Guess how well that went?

How is throwing not against the rules? Isn’t that like... the FIRST thing that should be a rule


not that I’ve read them

[Brilliand]

Give the Forger lookout powers seems too out of place relative to the Forger's other abilities, though adding the Osservatore (a dedicated Mafia Lookout) to the game would be good.

See, the problem with that is that if you make a new role, Forger stays as bad as it is now. Not to mention that you'd have to add it into an Investigator result and whatnot...

Not worth making the "Forger" not be a forger anymore. Blackmailer already isn't a Blackmailer (when played skillfully in most situations), let's not make other roles drift away from being what their name says they are.

Forger should get buffs that make it better at "forging" things. There are ways to do that, we don't have to resort to making it an Osservatore (with a crappy forging ability on the side) and pretending that it's somehow still a Forger.

[texer]

Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night.
Why? This seems like a totally random number and doesn't make sense to me. If a town only has one TP, he can confirm that person every night, but if they have over 3 TP/lo/other visits it doesn't show all of them? How does the game decide who it shows? Is this random? This nerf just seems silly and is completely dependent on the types of roles and how many people are visiting at a time. It'll never be a nerf if the visits are 3 or less, but will be confusing if visits get any higher.
Psychic will work the same but not have its alternating nights tied into full moon nights.

Neutral Killing Buffs
SerialKiller will not be stopped from attacking it's target by roleblocks. This allows for a double kill (the roleblocker and the SK target being attacked in the same night). Additionally when a SerialKiller kills a roleblocker, the last will of the roleblocker will be covered in blood, preventing it from being readable.
I actually like this. It's too easy when an sk is outed by getting rbed - super frustrating as serial killer, and when I'm town I just feel bad (especially on d2 when this happens).

For the Lo change I can confirm that the visits are random.

I think that if more than 3 people visit a target, they should show none of the targets, and instead say "There were too many visitors to your target last night so you could not identify any of them!" or something like that.

(Remember, the LO nerf was specifically done to counter the jailor meta. For games without it, LO doesn't need to be changed.)

Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).
This also seems useful, arso can be really slow to get going and I rarely see an arso win.

Werewolf - After night 4 every night will be a full moon night
Again, like this! The nks, especially arso and WW, can be slow to kill and this can be a game-ender later in the game.

[Descender]

gonna ask for tp/lo now when im arso

[Venusupreme]

Give the Forger lookout powers seems too out of place relative to the Forger's other abilities, though adding the Osservatore (a dedicated Mafia Lookout) to the game would be good.

See, the problem with that is that if you make a new role, Forger stays as bad as it is now. Not to mention that you'd have to add it into an Investigator result and whatnot...

Not worth making the "Forger" not be a forger anymore. Blackmailer already isn't a Blackmailer (when played skillfully in most situations), let's not make other roles drift away from being what their name says they are.

Forger should get buffs that make it better at "forging" things. There are ways to do that, we don't have to resort to making it an Osservatore (with a crappy forging ability on the side) and pretending that it's somehow still a Forger.

What you're doing is putting lore before balance. It doesn't matter that the role is called Forger. What I suggested will nerf an OP role and buff an UP role.

[Venusupreme]

Funny thing is that I have tried to explain to BMG/Trials how the issue with throwing/trolling not being against the rules could be fixed. Guess how well that went?

How is throwing not against the rules? Isn’t that like... the FIRST thing that should be a rule


not that I’ve read them

They say that throwing is against the rules. Unfortunately, BMG doesn't let trials actually punish it unless they admit to throwing or they kill a revealed mayor as town. You can't make this shit up.

[OreCreeper]

Funny thing is that I have tried to explain to BMG/Trials how the issue with throwing/trolling not being against the rules could be fixed. Guess how well that went?

How is throwing not against the rules? Isn’t that like... the FIRST thing that should be a rule


not that I’ve read them

They say that throwing is against the rules. Unfortunately, BMG doesn't let trials actually punish it unless they admit to throwing or they kill a revealed mayor as town. You can't make this shit up.

Me joking about cheating in one of my games:
BMG: *INSTABAN*
Guy claims jailor as vet then alerts:
BMG: Understandable, have a nice day.

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

Funny thing is that I have tried to explain to BMG/Trials how the issue with throwing/trolling not being against the rules could be fixed. Guess how well that went?

How is throwing not against the rules? Isn’t that like... the FIRST thing that should be a rule


not that I’ve read them

They say that throwing is against the rules. Unfortunately, BMG doesn't let trials actually punish it unless they admit to throwing or they kill a revealed mayor as town. You can't make this shit up.

Me joking about cheating in one of my games:
BMG: *INSTABAN*
Guy claims jailor as vet then alerts:
BMG: Understandable, have a nice day.

“B-B-But the Mafia could have attacked me!“

*insert my profile avatar here*

If they want to fix the gamethrowing shit, they need to make a list of “Banned plays” or something, and doing them is reportable. Ofc there would be like 2 things on there, but it would exist. Tired of these dumbies getting away free after lynching a confirmed transporter because a Serial Killer claimed Lookout with only a N5 result