ScarredSamurai wrote:Royee wrote:TheFrenchBandit wrote:Another thing about the positive/negative feedback for these changes - I hope some of the most experienced players and people who used to be top elo players before the change to the ELO system should be listened to when making these changes. I strongly doubt these changes would be welcome at higher elos when evils can already win regularly with mafia plays or NK cooperating with the mafia to gain majority quickly.
There are 2 problems with what you have just said.
You do not have any statistics about high elo town/mafia winrate. Being high elo doesn't mean you can balance.
However High elos have more expirience with how the game play might turn out.
I just feel like Town W/L is gonna be substantially lower now and Ranked will just be annoying losing all the points for such.
ScarredSamurai wrote:Lookout nerf could be swingy but thank god for it being semi-balanced countering jailor meta and giving mafia some easy mislynch opportunities.
Royee wrote:ScarredSamurai wrote:Royee wrote:TheFrenchBandit wrote:Another thing about the positive/negative feedback for these changes - I hope some of the most experienced players and people who used to be top elo players before the change to the ELO system should be listened to when making these changes. I strongly doubt these changes would be welcome at higher elos when evils can already win regularly with mafia plays or NK cooperating with the mafia to gain majority quickly.
There are 2 problems with what you have just said.
You do not have any statistics about high elo town/mafia winrate. Being high elo doesn't mean you can balance.
However High elos have more expirience with how the game play might turn out.
I just feel like Town W/L is gonna be substantially lower now and Ranked will just be annoying losing all the points for such.
Which is false inherently. More experience != High elo. There are 2 ways of approaching towards third party and both are fine.
NK will probably not have 50%+ winrate and barely 30.
ScarredSamurai wrote:I just feel like Town W/L is gonna be substantially lower now
TheFrenchBandit wrote:This is completely gamebreaking. Lookout might have been a strong role, but a better nerf would be reducing spawn rate, making a maximum number of lookouts, or in some way making it easier for evils to fake lookout.
That, however, is not the most gamebreaking part. An escort being killed and having their will deleted is fine for when they role block a serial killer, but the fact that the sk can now also kill another person means an SK asking for tp/lo/esc could easily get a kill. Additionally, escorts essentially CANNOT role block in an SK game or they run the risk of giving SK a double kill and losing the game.
The sk change is still not the most broken part. The arsonist changes mean that any player asking for tp/lo is going to be suspected of being arsonist. This makes evils stronger than town at this point, because any attempt to confirm roles on someone who is not the jailor or mayor (d1 mayor reveal to get TP, arsonist still douses and ignites them, d1 jailor reveal lets arsonist kill jailor, witches/consorts/bmrs run wild) will now become impossible as evils can claim TP and not go on them and just say they're scared of an arsonist, townies likely will do the same as preventing a mass ignite on night 2 will become very important. Essentially, this breaks town metas and makes the game way too easy for evils. I sincerely hope this patch is not added, it would completely destroy higher level play as almost always a non-jailor player will ask for tp/lo day 1.
The werewolf change is not too bad, it's difficult to get multiple kills in any case and living past night 4 is an accomplishment. It does mean werewolf will win a lot more NK vs Mafia scenarios in the end game but that's not too problematic.
Psychic changes don't do that much, it's already a pretty boring role.
Juggernaut changes are likely a response to people being upset they got attacked as juggernaut before they got night immunity, to that there are strategies to keep mafia away from you and also the same thing happens to jesters, townies, coven, random mafia (sk/coven), vampires, etc. The change about juggernaut was supposed to be an increased chance of spawning in game, not making the role even more powerful than it was before (vigis are ineffective). Juggernaut is already an very strong role, unstoppable attack is hugely powerful of course, this change is not really needed.
In summation, these neutral killing buffs (except juggernaut) are not good. Neutral factions are supposed to be harder because you have no teammates. These changes make it far too easy for an unskilled player to win as NK with minimal effort.
Royee wrote:ScarredSamurai wrote:Royee wrote:TheFrenchBandit wrote:Another thing about the positive/negative feedback for these changes - I hope some of the most experienced players and people who used to be top elo players before the change to the ELO system should be listened to when making these changes. I strongly doubt these changes would be welcome at higher elos when evils can already win regularly with mafia plays or NK cooperating with the mafia to gain majority quickly.
There are 2 problems with what you have just said.
You do not have any statistics about high elo town/mafia winrate. Being high elo doesn't mean you can balance.
However High elos have more expirience with how the game play might turn out.
I just feel like Town W/L is gonna be substantially lower now and Ranked will just be annoying losing all the points for such.
Which is false inherently. More experience != High elo. There are 2 ways of approaching towards third party and both are fine.
NK will probably not have 50%+ winrate and barely 30.
TylerDurden99 wrote:Royee wrote:ScarredSamurai wrote:Royee wrote:TheFrenchBandit wrote:Another thing about the positive/negative feedback for these changes - I hope some of the most experienced players and people who used to be top elo players before the change to the ELO system should be listened to when making these changes. I strongly doubt these changes would be welcome at higher elos when evils can already win regularly with mafia plays or NK cooperating with the mafia to gain majority quickly.
There are 2 problems with what you have just said.
You do not have any statistics about high elo town/mafia winrate. Being high elo doesn't mean you can balance.
However High elos have more expirience with how the game play might turn out.
I just feel like Town W/L is gonna be substantially lower now and Ranked will just be annoying losing all the points for such.
Which is false inherently. More experience != High elo. There are 2 ways of approaching towards third party and both are fine.
NK will probably not have 50%+ winrate and barely 30.
What's your elo? Do you think 30% WR makes sense for someone playing against atleast 13 other players?
GabiRamo69 wrote:[
Hi!
I am a top 25 player who makes strategies in high ELO and I am here to show exactly why these changes are a very bad idea and will break the game.
[ This is from a RANKED perspective only ]
Let me address the following first.
TOWN BEING OP IS A MYTH.
Especially now with ret change, basically impossible to win with rolelists are no more. There is no more insta-confirm for anyone except mayor. And before you go like "TRANSPORTER", "JAILOR", a good evil can 100% get away with those claims and get the real one hanged.
The real problem is that 95% of the playerbase has no idea how to play evil. They claim sheriff with ns/gf results and know nothing about voting patterns, game mechanics, multiple mafia strategies.
The average played, in fact, doesn't even use the main advantage of the mafia faction: knowing your teammates.
Winning every game as evil is possible. I repeat it is possible, except for bs rng like NK killing mafia.
I think that instead of implementing unnecessary changes we should instead focus on promoting tactics, this is supposed to be a strategy game after all right? I'd suggest making gameplay highlights like many other games do.
That set aside, let's get into why the NK changes are not ideal whatsoever.
-----------THE WW CHANGE-----------------
You are essentially nuking the entire concept for "late game" and ending every single game by N5.
I repeat, this is a strategy game, or so it should be. By making the game shorter by default you are forcing players into choosing from less and less plays to make, making the game more predictable and less strategy oriented.
Let me set the scene for everyone.
N1- No WW attack N2- ATTACK N3- No N4- ATTACK N5- ATTACK N6-ATTACK
( I chose 6 nights because that is the average duration of a ranked game as of now)
Remember that WW also has his passive.
As of right now, without those changes, WW still gets 4-5 person kills sometimes. Just imagine the mess which every single ww game would be with this change.
----------THE ARSO CHANGE-----------------
This change would essentially destroy the tp/lo/esc/spy meta. But this also allows for rng bs games where because of a RANDOM N1 VISIT either the evils (by dousing an evil) or townies are going to lose the game when arso has that extra ignite on them. ( Yes, I am aware that arso will know who is doused and could stop from igniting if he knows another evil is doused, but that is assuming he figures that, and even if he does, hard delaying the ignite will obviously also affect evils).
----------THE SK CHANGE---------------------
Ah, yes, more rng bs. Just imagine that an esc rbs sk n1, those are 3 dead townies by D2 assuming mafia also gets a kill and sk hits a townie.
That would be equilibrium aka 6v6 by d2.
Evils WILL win in that situation.
Townies have LIMITED killing power, meanwhile evils don't. Doesn't take too much thinking to realize what the most likely outcome is.
Also LO is a perfectly balanced role and this change makes no sense in the context of those other ones which were mentioned. The LO change was made to nerf the tp/lo/esc/spy meta, but there was clearly no need for that with that arso rework which basically makes continuing using it impossible.
PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THOSE CHANGES. THEY WILL BREAK RANKED.
Here is an actual good balance change( I will come back with more info on this later )
Replace NE and NK with 2 more mafia.
9 townies 6 mafia.
NE is straight up luck based and NK is a wildcard which you are clearly trying to change anyways. Make your own lives easier, just remove it from ranked. Make the game more high skill cap and allow mafia to make more plays. This also means that players will get to be maf a lot more and will be forced to start actually trying as evil.
There are a lot of advantages to this change, as I said, I will be back on this subject later.
Listen to your ranked players please ^^
- Oxy
GabiRamo69 wrote:[
Hi!
I am a top 25 player who makes strategies in high ELO and I am here to show exactly why these changes are a very bad idea and will break the game.
[ This is from a RANKED perspective only ]
Let me address the following first.
TOWN BEING OP IS A MYTH.
Especially now with ret change, basically impossible to win with rolelists are no more. There is no more insta-confirm for anyone except mayor. And before you go like "TRANSPORTER", "JAILOR", a good evil can 100% get away with those claims and get the real one hanged.
The real problem is that 95% of the playerbase has no idea how to play evil. They claim sheriff with ns/gf results and know nothing about voting patterns, game mechanics, multiple mafia strategies.
The average played, in fact, doesn't even use the main advantage of the mafia faction: knowing your teammates.
Winning every game as evil is possible. I repeat it is possible, except for bs rng like NK killing mafia.
I think that instead of implementing unnecessary changes we should instead focus on promoting tactics, this is supposed to be a strategy game after all right? I'd suggest making gameplay highlights like many other games do.
That set aside, let's get into why the NK changes are not ideal whatsoever.
-----------THE WW CHANGE-----------------
You are essentially nuking the entire concept for "late game" and ending every single game by N5.
I repeat, this is a strategy game, or so it should be. By making the game shorter by default you are forcing players into choosing from less and less plays to make, making the game more predictable and less strategy oriented.
Let me set the scene for everyone.
N1- No WW attack N2- ATTACK N3- No N4- ATTACK N5- ATTACK N6-ATTACK
( I chose 6 nights because that is the average duration of a ranked game as of now)
Remember that WW also has his passive.
As of right now, without those changes, WW still gets 4-5 person kills sometimes. Just imagine the mess which every single ww game would be with this change.
----------THE ARSO CHANGE-----------------
This change would essentially destroy the tp/lo/esc/spy meta. But this also allows for rng bs games where because of a RANDOM N1 VISIT either the evils (by dousing an evil) or townies are going to lose the game when arso has that extra ignite on them. ( Yes, I am aware that arso will know who is doused and could stop from igniting if he knows another evil is doused, but that is assuming he figures that, and even if he does, hard delaying the ignite will obviously also affect evils).
----------THE SK CHANGE---------------------
Ah, yes, more rng bs. Just imagine that an esc rbs sk n1, those are 3 dead townies by D2 assuming mafia also gets a kill and sk hits a townie.
That would be equilibrium aka 6v6 by d2.
Evils WILL win in that situation.
Townies have LIMITED killing power, meanwhile evils don't. Doesn't take too much thinking to realize what the most likely outcome is.
Also LO is a perfectly balanced role and this change makes no sense in the context of those other ones which were mentioned. The LO change was made to nerf the tp/lo/esc/spy meta, but there was clearly no need for that with that arso rework which basically makes continuing using it impossible.
PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THOSE CHANGES. THEY WILL BREAK RANKED.
Here is an actual good balance change( I will come back with more info on this later )
Replace NE and NK with 2 more mafia.
9 townies 6 mafia.
NE is straight up luck based and NK is a wildcard which you are clearly trying to change anyways. Make your own lives easier, just remove it from ranked. Make the game more high skill cap and allow mafia to make more plays. This also means that players will get to be maf a lot more and will be forced to start actually trying as evil.
There are a lot of advantages to this change, as I said, I will be back on this subject later.
Listen to your ranked players please ^^
- Oxy
GabiRamo69 wrote:[
Hi!
I am a top 25 player who makes strategies in high ELO and I am here to show exactly why these changes are a very bad idea and will break the game.
[ This is from a RANKED perspective only ]
Let me address the following first.
TOWN BEING OP IS A MYTH.
Especially now with ret change, basically impossible to win with rolelists are no more. There is no more insta-confirm for anyone except mayor. And before you go like "TRANSPORTER", "JAILOR", a good evil can 100% get away with those claims and get the real one hanged.
The real problem is that 95% of the playerbase has no idea how to play evil. They claim sheriff with ns/gf results and know nothing about voting patterns, game mechanics, multiple mafia strategies.
The average played, in fact, doesn't even use the main advantage of the mafia faction: knowing your teammates.
Winning every game as evil is possible. I repeat it is possible, except for bs rng like NK killing mafia.
I think that instead of implementing unnecessary changes we should instead focus on promoting tactics, this is supposed to be a strategy game after all right? I'd suggest making gameplay highlights like many other games do.
That set aside, let's get into why the NK changes are not ideal whatsoever.
-----------THE WW CHANGE-----------------
You are essentially nuking the entire concept for "late game" and ending every single game by N5.
I repeat, this is a strategy game, or so it should be. By making the game shorter by default you are forcing players into choosing from less and less plays to make, making the game more predictable and less strategy oriented.
Let me set the scene for everyone.
N1- No WW attack N2- ATTACK N3- No N4- ATTACK N5- ATTACK N6-ATTACK
( I chose 6 nights because that is the average duration of a ranked game as of now)
Remember that WW also has his passive.
As of right now, without those changes, WW still gets 4-5 person kills sometimes. Just imagine the mess which every single ww game would be with this change.
----------THE ARSO CHANGE-----------------
This change would essentially destroy the tp/lo/esc/spy meta. But this also allows for rng bs games where because of a RANDOM N1 VISIT either the evils (by dousing an evil) or townies are going to lose the game when arso has that extra ignite on them. ( Yes, I am aware that arso will know who is doused and could stop from igniting if he knows another evil is doused, but that is assuming he figures that, and even if he does, hard delaying the ignite will obviously also affect evils).
----------THE SK CHANGE---------------------
Ah, yes, more rng bs. Just imagine that an esc rbs sk n1, those are 3 dead townies by D2 assuming mafia also gets a kill and sk hits a townie.
That would be equilibrium aka 6v6 by d2.
Evils WILL win in that situation.
Townies have LIMITED killing power, meanwhile evils don't. Doesn't take too much thinking to realize what the most likely outcome is.
Also LO is a perfectly balanced role and this change makes no sense in the context of those other ones which were mentioned. The LO change was made to nerf the tp/lo/esc/spy meta, but there was clearly no need for that with that arso rework which basically makes continuing using it impossible.
PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THOSE CHANGES. THEY WILL BREAK RANKED.
Here is an actual good balance change( I will come back with more info on this later )
Replace NE and NK with 2 more mafia.
9 townies 6 mafia.
NE is straight up luck based and NK is a wildcard which you are clearly trying to change anyways. Make your own lives easier, just remove it from ranked. Make the game more high skill cap and allow mafia to make more plays. This also means that players will get to be maf a lot more and will be forced to start actually trying as evil.
There are a lot of advantages to this change, as I said, I will be back on this subject later.
Listen to your ranked players please ^^
- Oxy
GabiRamo69 wrote:[
Hi!
I am a top 25 player who makes strategies in high ELO and I am here to show exactly why these changes are a very bad idea and will break the game.
[ This is from a RANKED perspective only ]
Let me address the following first.
TOWN BEING OP IS A MYTH.
Especially now with ret change, basically impossible to win with rolelists are no more. There is no more insta-confirm for anyone except mayor. And before you go like "TRANSPORTER", "JAILOR", a good evil can 100% get away with those claims and get the real one hanged.
The real problem is that 95% of the playerbase has no idea how to play evil. They claim sheriff with ns/gf results and know nothing about voting patterns, game mechanics, multiple mafia strategies.
The average played, in fact, doesn't even use the main advantage of the mafia faction: knowing your teammates.
Winning every game as evil is possible. I repeat it is possible, except for bs rng like NK killing mafia.
I think that instead of implementing unnecessary changes we should instead focus on promoting tactics, this is supposed to be a strategy game after all right? I'd suggest making gameplay highlights like many other games do.
That set aside, let's get into why the NK changes are not ideal whatsoever.
-----------THE WW CHANGE-----------------
You are essentially nuking the entire concept for "late game" and ending every single game by N5.
I repeat, this is a strategy game, or so it should be. By making the game shorter by default you are forcing players into choosing from less and less plays to make, making the game more predictable and less strategy oriented.
Let me set the scene for everyone.
N1- No WW attack N2- ATTACK N3- No N4- ATTACK N5- ATTACK N6-ATTACK
( I chose 6 nights because that is the average duration of a ranked game as of now)
Remember that WW also has his passive.
As of right now, without those changes, WW still gets 4-5 person kills sometimes. Just imagine the mess which every single ww game would be with this change.
----------THE ARSO CHANGE-----------------
This change would essentially destroy the tp/lo/esc/spy meta. But this also allows for rng bs games where because of a RANDOM N1 VISIT either the evils (by dousing an evil) or townies are going to lose the game when arso has that extra ignite on them. ( Yes, I am aware that arso will know who is doused and could stop from igniting if he knows another evil is doused, but that is assuming he figures that, and even if he does, hard delaying the ignite will obviously also affect evils).
----------THE SK CHANGE---------------------
Ah, yes, more rng bs. Just imagine that an esc rbs sk n1, those are 3 dead townies by D2 assuming mafia also gets a kill and sk hits a townie.
That would be equilibrium aka 6v6 by d2.
Evils WILL win in that situation.
Townies have LIMITED killing power, meanwhile evils don't. Doesn't take too much thinking to realize what the most likely outcome is.
Also LO is a perfectly balanced role and this change makes no sense in the context of those other ones which were mentioned. The LO change was made to nerf the tp/lo/esc/spy meta, but there was clearly no need for that with that arso rework which basically makes continuing using it impossible.
PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THOSE CHANGES. THEY WILL BREAK RANKED.
Here is an actual good balance change( I will come back with more info on this later )
Replace NE and NK with 2 more mafia.
9 townies 6 mafia.
NE is straight up luck based and NK is a wildcard which you are clearly trying to change anyways. Make your own lives easier, just remove it from ranked. Make the game more high skill cap and allow mafia to make more plays. This also means that players will get to be maf a lot more and will be forced to start actually trying as evil.
There are a lot of advantages to this change, as I said, I will be back on this subject later.
Listen to your ranked players please ^^
- Oxy
Achilles wrote:Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:
Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night.
All this does is make it so LO can confirm 3 townies if they are on the Jailor, not much of a Nerf to Jailor Meta, also adds RNG
Psychic will work the same but not have its alternating nights tied into full moon nights.
Neutral Killing Buffs
SerialKiller will not be stopped from attacking it's target by roleblocks. This allows for a double kill (the roleblocker and the SK target being attacked in the same night). Additionally when a SerialKiller kills a roleblocker, the last will of the roleblocker will be covered in blood, preventing it from being readable.
The clearing of wills thing is nice, but 2 kills in one night? I don't know how i think about that
Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).
No No NO NO, fist of all, this is absolutely absurd, it means that Arso now can ignite by as early as Day 3 potentially, especially in All Any, secondly, this makes it near impossible for a Witch to side with the Arsonist, since they'll be doused if they find out their identity, i think that roleblock immunity is a better change
Werewolf - After night 4 every night will be a full moon night
Ehhhh, ok i guess
Juggernaut - Juggernaut will now have basic defense. Rampaging and Unstoppable attack upgrades now require 1 less kill to unlock.
Arsland wrote:Appreciated the effort for tackling the jailor tplo meta, but personally I don't really buy it.
SK and arso are too strong. Town would easily lose majority by Day 3 without even trying. Werewolf is okay. Arso is the worst one. These are all very well and descriptively mentioned from most of the posts above, so I don't elaborate more.
Lookout and Psychic reworks are very unnecessary. I think these two roles are already good as they are.
Here's my humble opinion. What evils need right now is having RT claim space, for instance, limiting TS role spawns, adding mafia role like hypnotist to ranked to encourage mafia plays and transporter from easily confirmed, etc. As for the jailor tplo meta, I like the mafioso astral attack idea. In addition, arso igniting jailor N2 is already a counter.
Also, buffing mafia would be an indirect buff for NK as well. NK isn't really the top priority regarding balancing. So instead of breaking NK's ability, maybe address the limited RT spots problem and adding astral attack for mafioso would be a good anecdote to both jailor meta and balancing issues.
Arsland wrote:Appreciated the effort for tackling the jailor tplo meta, but personally I don't really buy it.
SK and arso are too strong. Town would easily lose majority by Day 3 without even trying. Werewolf is okay. Arso is the worst one. These are all very well and descriptively mentioned from most of the posts above, so I don't elaborate more.
Lookout and Psychic reworks are very unnecessary. I think these two roles are already good as they are.
Here's my humble opinion. What evils need right now is having RT claim space, for instance, limiting TS role spawns, adding mafia role like hypnotist to ranked to encourage mafia plays and transporter from easily confirmed, etc. As for the jailor tplo meta, I like the mafioso astral attack idea. In addition, arso igniting jailor N2 is already a counter.
Also, buffing mafia would be an indirect buff for NK as well. NK isn't really the top priority regarding balancing. So instead of breaking NK's ability, maybe address the limited RT spots problem and adding astral attack for mafioso would be a good anecdote to both jailor meta and balancing issues.
GabiRamo69 wrote:
PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THOSE CHANGES. THEY WILL BREAK RANKED.
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