Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

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Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Achilles » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:35 pm

Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night.
Psychic will work the same but not have its alternating nights tied into full moon nights.

Neutral Killing Buffs
SerialKiller will not be stopped from attacking it's target by roleblocks. This allows for a double kill (the roleblocker and the SK target being attacked in the same night). Additionally when a SerialKiller kills a roleblocker, the last will of the roleblocker will be covered in blood, preventing it from being readable.

Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).

Werewolf - After night 4 every night will be a full moon night

Juggernaut - Juggernaut will now have basic defense. Rampaging and Unstoppable attack upgrades now require 1 less kill to unlock.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby cob709 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:46 pm

yay buffing NKs
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby cob709 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:03 pm

Achilles wrote:Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night.

This seems unnecessary, why is it being nerfd?
Achilles wrote:Psychic will work the same but not have its alternating nights tied into full moon nights.

Are full moon cycles going to change? Or are the psychic cycles changing?
Achilles wrote:Neutral Killing Buffs
SerialKiller will not be stopped from attacking it's target by roleblocks. This allows for a double kill (the roleblocker and the SK target being attacked in the same night). Additionally when a SerialKiller kills a roleblocker, the last will of the roleblocker will be covered in blood, preventing it from being readable.

Okay, clearing escort's last will is good but the double kill is kinda questionable.

Achilles wrote:Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).

Well this might make arsonist too powerful. It'll be like a Hex Master, Plaguebearer, and Veteran combined.

Achilles wrote:Werewolf - After night 4 every night will be a full moon night

This could work pretty well. Alternatively, making full moon nights progressively more often might also work. (N1, N4, N6, N7)
N1 Full moon
N2 Wait 2 nights
N3 Wait 2 nights
N4 Full moon
N5 Wait 1 night
N6 Full moon
N7 Full moon
etc

Achilles wrote:Juggernaut - Juggernaut will now have basic defense. Rampaging and Unstoppable attack upgrades now require 1 less kill to unlock.

idk what to think, i havent played as juggernaut
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Superalex11 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:08 pm

Great on the NK buffs.

I'm not sure what the deal is with the lookout change, though. If it's to deal with the tplo meta, it will have a meaningless effect on that matter. When following the meta, the average number of visits to a jailor (excluding the lo watching) is 2.42, maybe rounded up to 2.5 if you include spies and escorts n1. The probability that there's more than 3 visits is only 17%, again maybe rounded to 20% if you include spies and escorts. That means that this change would have 0 impact in at least 4 of every 5 games, and probably otherwise negligible impact in a much greater proportion - this all being based on rng of course, something you'd usually want to avoid.


IMPORTANT EDIT: The math is wrong on this. See my updated post.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Brilliand » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:53 pm

Achilles wrote:Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night.


Hmm, that isn't the most popular Lookout nerf in Role Ideas; I think the favored solution to the Lookout's OPness is to give other roles buffs that counter the Lookout.

The Lookout does need a nerf (or at least a counter), and this is a Lookout nerf, but I think we can do better.

Achilles wrote:SerialKiller will not be stopped from attacking it's target by roleblocks. This allows for a double kill (the roleblocker and the SK target being attacked in the same night). Additionally when a SerialKiller kills a roleblocker, the last will of the roleblocker will be covered in blood, preventing it from being readable.

Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).

Werewolf - After night 4 every night will be a full moon night

Juggernaut - Juggernaut will now have basic defense. Rampaging and Unstoppable attack upgrades now require 1 less kill to unlock.


Ooh, nice buffs for all the NKs. I like.

I think these buffs will leave WW as the weakest NK.

cob709 wrote:Are full moon cycles going to change? Or are the psychic cycles changing?


Judging from the Werewolf buff, the full moon cycles are changing, and the Psychic is not.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:56 pm

The only bad thing about the arsonist buff imo is that witches will want arso out even more.
I actually like these changes I feel like nks will be more feared now, Although I think sk will be the weakest, Werewolf seems very powerful now which I like especially late game Arsonist clearly seems like the best nk now
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby cob709 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:50 pm

With these buffs, NKs might become a priority for town to eliminate, it might end up hurting them
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:26 pm

cob709 wrote:With these buffs, NKs might become a priority for town to eliminate, it might end up hurting them


When Nks are weaker then a alone Godfahter there's a problem.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:26 pm

cob709 wrote:With these buffs, NKs might become a priority for town to eliminate, it might end up hurting them


When Nks are weaker then a alone Godfather there's a problem.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby cob709 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:24 pm

fair enough
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby GodWarCOD » Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:59 am

Achilles wrote:Update on what we are working on and the plans for our next patch:

Lookout will be limited to seeing only 3 visiting roles per night.
Psychic will work the same but not have its alternating nights tied into full moon nights.

Neutral Killing Buffs
SerialKiller will not be stopped from attacking it's target by roleblocks. This allows for a double kill (the roleblocker and the SK target being attacked in the same night). Additionally when a SerialKiller kills a roleblocker, the last will of the roleblocker will be covered in blood, preventing it from being readable.

Arsonist will now passively gas douse anyone who visits them. Arsonist will also now get feedback about who is gas doused (similar to plaguebearer).

Werewolf - After night 4 every night will be a full moon night

Juggernaut - Juggernaut will now have basic defense. Rampaging and Unstoppable attack upgrades now require 1 less kill to unlock.

The changes to the neutrals look interesting. the NK should not depend on sides to win, as in the game.
On the other hand, the change to the lookout is unnecessary, that change will make it a rather useless role in most cases.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby CrimsonKatana » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:36 am

If you got a problem with current NKs you're a scrub this will make them OP imo I'm just talking about ranked
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby TylerDurden99 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:04 pm

Good Suggestions for mafia.
Framer being able to frame a mafia member 1 time to make them appear inno
Disguiser being able to take any role in game 1 time not appearing as spy visit.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby tuulekuninganna » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:07 pm

NKs are just fine the way they are, only reasonable change I see mentioned here is for Jugg. WW change isn't as bad as others since it only starts to affect game after n4 by what town should be already able to identify ww but ones for sk and arso seem extremely OP and unnecessary. Talking from ranked prespective, evils main goal at the beginning is to gain majority and with SK/Arso kill potential increased trastically it could easily happen within first nights without häving to put any hard effort out as evils. Imagine NK claims Jailor d1. If it's SK and there's any escorts it's already quaranteed 2 kills n1 which with maf kill can turn game into 6v6 by d2 while town hasnt been able to even try yet. Also Arso working as Pb will make it extremely powerful with any type of baits, even if this patch is meant to stop Jailor meta, Arso can easily get a good fakeclaim and have lots of townies visit which will also lead to evils majority extremely quickly. Also I don't see any reasons Lookout nerf should be applied either. Glad to see devs are working on this game again but honestly this change would be even more unbalanced to ranked than old Retri and needs to be stopped. Changes Tyler suggested for Mafia would make way more sense and would buff evils without making them op^
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby TheFrenchBandit » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:10 pm

This is completely gamebreaking. Lookout might have been a strong role, but a better nerf would be reducing spawn rate, making a maximum number of lookouts, or in some way making it easier for evils to fake lookout.

That, however, is not the most gamebreaking part. An escort being killed and having their will deleted is fine for when they role block a serial killer, but the fact that the sk can now also kill another person means an SK asking for tp/lo/esc could easily get a kill. Additionally, escorts essentially CANNOT role block in an SK game or they run the risk of giving SK a double kill and losing the game.

The sk change is still not the most broken part. The arsonist changes mean that any player asking for tp/lo is going to be suspected of being arsonist. This makes evils stronger than town at this point, because any attempt to confirm roles on someone who is not the jailor or mayor (d1 mayor reveal to get TP, arsonist still douses and ignites them, d1 jailor reveal lets arsonist kill jailor, witches/consorts/bmrs run wild) will now become impossible as evils can claim TP and not go on them and just say they're scared of an arsonist, townies likely will do the same as preventing a mass ignite on night 2 will become very important. Essentially, this breaks town metas and makes the game way too easy for evils. I sincerely hope this patch is not added, it would completely destroy higher level play as almost always a non-jailor player will ask for tp/lo day 1.

The werewolf change is not too bad, it's difficult to get multiple kills in any case and living past night 4 is an accomplishment. It does mean werewolf will win a lot more NK vs Mafia scenarios in the end game but that's not too problematic.

Psychic changes don't do that much, it's already a pretty boring role.

Juggernaut changes are likely a response to people being upset they got attacked as juggernaut before they got night immunity, to that there are strategies to keep mafia away from you and also the same thing happens to jesters, townies, coven, random mafia (sk/coven), vampires, etc. The change about juggernaut was supposed to be an increased chance of spawning in game, not making the role even more powerful than it was before (vigis are ineffective). Juggernaut is already an very strong role, unstoppable attack is hugely powerful of course, this change is not really needed.

In summation, these neutral killing buffs (except juggernaut) are not good. Neutral factions are supposed to be harder because you have no teammates. These changes make it far too easy for an unskilled player to win as NK with minimal effort.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Chemist1422 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:17 pm

lookout change is probably fine if there's a priority for roles added that stays consistent

SK change is good, especially if the will change applies to the jailor as well
Juggernaut change seems good though I've never personally played with it
Werewolf change seems fine if boosting the power of NKs is your goal

The arsonist change I don't like at all, really. It's incredibly swingy and skyrockets the arsonist's KPN to the point where it's pretty clearly overcompensation and I think makes it too strong without the arsonist having to do much actively
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby TheFrenchBandit » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:19 pm

Another thing about the positive/negative feedback for these changes - I hope some of the most experienced players and people who used to be top elo players before the change to the ELO system should be listened to when making these changes. I strongly doubt these changes would be welcome at higher elos when evils can already win regularly with mafia plays or NK cooperating with the mafia to gain majority quickly.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby TylerDurden99 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:19 pm

If the idea is ending with the jailor meta you could give like you talked an unstoppable attack to mafioso, but make it expire if not used till N2. This changes only makes the NKs broken.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby TheNoobZeKo » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:21 pm

Should've just buffed mafia with the old changes that you suggested as that indirectly buffs NKs at the same time and and not make NKs op. Only one I agree with is Jugg change. SK change would be good if they couldn't kill two people in one night.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby ScarredSamurai » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:23 pm

Lookout nerf could be swingy but thank god for it being semi-balanced countering jailor meta and giving mafia some easy mislynch opportunities.
Not much to say for Psychic

Serial Killer Buff I like besides the double kill. I personally think it should be buffed where if they kill the roleblocker, their will is covered in blood and same with the Jailor instead of double kill oppertunity.

Arsonist buff I really don't like. It's now the most powerful Neutral Killing and unstoppable. Can't help but feel Ranked will be a living hell if it rolls.

Werewolf... Idk what to think about it.

And I don't think Jugg really needs a buff considering it's more common now. In Coven All Any no one can find the jugg and they are just unstoppable after so many kills.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Royee » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:24 pm

TheFrenchBandit wrote:Another thing about the positive/negative feedback for these changes - I hope some of the most experienced players and people who used to be top elo players before the change to the ELO system should be listened to when making these changes. I strongly doubt these changes would be welcome at higher elos when evils can already win regularly with mafia plays or NK cooperating with the mafia to gain majority quickly.

There are 2 problems with what you have just said.
You do not have any statistics about high elo town/mafia winrate. Being high elo doesn't mean you can balance.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby ScarredSamurai » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:25 pm

TheFrenchBandit wrote:This is completely gamebreaking. Lookout might have been a strong role, but a better nerf would be reducing spawn rate, making a maximum number of lookouts, or in some way making it easier for evils to fake lookout.

That, however, is not the most gamebreaking part. An escort being killed and having their will deleted is fine for when they role block a serial killer, but the fact that the sk can now also kill another person means an SK asking for tp/lo/esc could easily get a kill. Additionally, escorts essentially CANNOT role block in an SK game or they run the risk of giving SK a double kill and losing the game.

The sk change is still not the most broken part. The arsonist changes mean that any player asking for tp/lo is going to be suspected of being arsonist. This makes evils stronger than town at this point, because any attempt to confirm roles on someone who is not the jailor or mayor (d1 mayor reveal to get TP, arsonist still douses and ignites them, d1 jailor reveal lets arsonist kill jailor, witches/consorts/bmrs run wild) will now become impossible as evils can claim TP and not go on them and just say they're scared of an arsonist, townies likely will do the same as preventing a mass ignite on night 2 will become very important. Essentially, this breaks town metas and makes the game way too easy for evils. I sincerely hope this patch is not added, it would completely destroy higher level play as almost always a non-jailor player will ask for tp/lo day 1.

The werewolf change is not too bad, it's difficult to get multiple kills in any case and living past night 4 is an accomplishment. It does mean werewolf will win a lot more NK vs Mafia scenarios in the end game but that's not too problematic.

Psychic changes don't do that much, it's already a pretty boring role.

Juggernaut changes are likely a response to people being upset they got attacked as juggernaut before they got night immunity, to that there are strategies to keep mafia away from you and also the same thing happens to jesters, townies, coven, random mafia (sk/coven), vampires, etc. The change about juggernaut was supposed to be an increased chance of spawning in game, not making the role even more powerful than it was before (vigis are ineffective). Juggernaut is already an very strong role, unstoppable attack is hugely powerful of course, this change is not really needed.

In summation, these neutral killing buffs (except juggernaut) are not good. Neutral factions are supposed to be harder because you have no teammates. These changes make it far too easy for an unskilled player to win as NK with minimal effort.


I agree with the following.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby ScarredSamurai » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:26 pm

Royee wrote:
TheFrenchBandit wrote:Another thing about the positive/negative feedback for these changes - I hope some of the most experienced players and people who used to be top elo players before the change to the ELO system should be listened to when making these changes. I strongly doubt these changes would be welcome at higher elos when evils can already win regularly with mafia plays or NK cooperating with the mafia to gain majority quickly.

There are 2 problems with what you have just said.
You do not have any statistics about high elo town/mafia winrate. Being high elo doesn't mean you can balance.

However High elos have more expirience with how the game play might turn out.

I just feel like Town W/L is gonna be substantially lower now and Ranked will just be annoying losing all the points for such.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby Royee » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:27 pm

These changes are fine.
It really depends on dev's mindset with which way of approaching towards nk they are going with.
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Re: Plans for the next patch (3.2.5)

Postby tuulekuninganna » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:30 pm

I could see those changes working in non-competitive modes with beginners but when it comes to balance devs should listen more to experienced ranked players imo where those would be really OP.
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