Details of upcoming patch

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Details of upcoming patch

Postby Achilles » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:19 pm

Hey Townies,

Wanted to give some details on the contents of our next patch expected to be out sometime next week. These are the big ticket items.

Retributionist rework
The Retributionist has been completely reworked to be the good version of the Necromancer. The Ret can reanimate dead Town roles and use their night ability one more time. The Ret will receive important feedback of roles that it controls such as TI results or if a targets defense was too high when reanimating a Vigilante.

Necromancer
The Necromancer will also have information forwarding like the Retributionist does.

Witch/CovenLeader
Witch/CL also gets information forwarding when controlling roles such as Sheriff, Lookout, Spy, Tracker, Investigator, Consigliere. The controlled role will no longer get the feedback making Witch/CL control more of a role blocking effect.

Ambusher
Ambusher will now get feedback when they attack someone

Juggernaut
It will now be much more likely for a Juggernaut to spawn in games.

Taunts
When a dead player taunts someone it will now only be seen by the taunted player and other dead players.

Targets Defense Is Too High
We have standardized this feedback to be more uniform for all cases in which an attackers target has defense higher than the attack. Most importantly Doctor heal and Crusader protection will now give this feedback to attackers, creating more claim space for evil roles with Basic defense.

Dual Targeting UI
Roles with two targets have had their UI improved

Bug fixes

Spy
Fixed a bug that prevented Spy from getting their results on the night they die

Jailor/Pestilence
Fixed a bug that would not show a Jailor died from Pestilence when jailing them

Jailor/Doctor/SerialKiller
Doctor will now properly get feedback when they heal a Jailor who is attacked by the SK they jailed
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Brilliand » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:33 pm

Awesome. All good changes.

Achilles wrote:Juggernaut
It will now be much more likely for a Juggernaut to spawn in games.


Does this mean Juggernaut will have the same chance as other NKs?

Achilles wrote:Taunts
When a dead player taunts someone it will now only be seen by the taunted player and other dead players.


I think it might be better not to show this to the taunted player? There is still potential to communicate information from the dead to the living here, however slight.
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Jerme » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:02 pm

I guess that this update means that the Juggernaut will have the same spawn rate than the other NKs.
Also interesting update, could be interesting to see how it goes from there.

Also good that you found the root of some issue that had be around for quite some time.
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:21 am

Achilles wrote:Hey Townies,

Wanted to give some details on the contents of our next patch expected to be out sometime next week. These are the big ticket items.

Retributionist rework
The Retributionist has been completely reworked to be the good version of the Necromancer. The Ret can reanimate dead Town roles and use their night ability one more time. The Ret will receive important feedback of roles that it controls such as TI results or if a targets defense was too high when reanimating a Vigilante.

Necromancer
The Necromancer will also have information forwarding like the Retributionist does.

Witch/CovenLeader
Witch/CL also gets information forwarding when controlling roles such as Sheriff, Lookout, Spy, Tracker, Investigator, Consigliere. The controlled role will no longer get the feedback making Witch/CL control more of a role blocking effect.

Ambusher
Ambusher will now get feedback when they attack someone

Juggernaut
It will now be much more likely for a Juggernaut to spawn in games.

Taunts
When a dead player taunts someone it will now only be seen by the taunted player and other dead players.

Targets Defense Is Too High
We have standardized this feedback to be more uniform for all cases in which an attackers target has defense higher than the attack. Most importantly Doctor heal and Crusader protection will now give this feedback to attackers, creating more claim space for evil roles with Basic defense.

Dual Targeting UI
Roles with two targets have had their UI improved

Bug fixes

Spy
Fixed a bug that prevented Spy from getting their results on the night they die

Jailor/Pestilence
Fixed a bug that would not show a Jailor died from Pestilence when jailing them

Jailor/Doctor/SerialKiller
Doctor will now properly get feedback when they heal a Jailor who is attacked by the SK they jailed


Alright the Retributionist changes Ngl are amazing, Makes the role really fun and a lot more healthy for balance Imo. (Necro buffs are also great)
Side Note: I hope this means Retri can be TT now.

Witch/CL changes:
I think this is a pretty nice buff to witch, might allow witch to controll Lo's and aid mafia in outing Tps on the jailor.

Immunity Message changes:
This is good allows roles like Sk to claim Self healed ect. Of course it would also let evils fake claim they saved their own GF which can be intreasting


P EDIT:
If Juggernaut spawns are higher I think them been given a investigation result to investigator is needed (was needed a long time but invest shouldn't just be able to find Jugger)
Last edited by Soulshade55r on Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Achilles » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:23 am

Juggernaut will still be more rare than NKs and has the lowest chance of any role to spawn from an ANY slot, but it will be around 6 times more likely to spawn in every slot it is able to spawn in.
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Royee » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:41 am

Will the update contain more changes to some roles(i.e framer/disguiser) or will that come separately in the future?
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:10 am

Looks like a pretty cool patch!

So, now that taunts arent worth anything... and no one is gonna buy taunt starter bundles, can you guys change the taunt bundles into scroll starter bundles? Maybe 5 - 10 of each scroll? (or 5 of each scroll with a bonus 3 of each scroll + TP) for 99c and $1.99? instead of 50 taunts and 3 of each scroll...
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Amythyr » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:58 am

I like it. Looks like a good patch.

I would love if you guys move hypno to classic too. It will be awesome in classic ranked
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Flavorable » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:33 am

Amythyr wrote:I like it. Looks like a good patch.

I would love if you guys move hypno to classic too. It will be awesome in classic ranked

The Devs (or at least Shape) have already said a couple times that there are currently no plans to move Coven roles away from Coven.
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Flavorable » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:40 am

As a question about the taunts:

What is the point of taunts now? In Coven, afaik, taunts were a great way for evils to lynch townies by quickly taunting someone if a townie got stoned by Medusa or killed by an Ambusher, to get that extra kill in or cause mayhem. Or even as an Exe to throw suspicion to your target.

And sure, I get that the catering generally needs to be done to the more "casual" players and not the players that play large amounts of games, but then why not remove taunts completely? There is literally no point in them anymore now.
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby williewest » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:47 am

Is there a difference in limit for how many times Ret can use their changed ability (keeping note they can't use it on the same dead town player more than once), or still just one-time use overall?
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby IAmAnIssue » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:06 am

A couple of questions:

- Will Retributionist and Necromancer be able to reuse the same dead townie (do they share rot)?
- Will Retributionist die if they shoot a townie using a dead Vigilante (I assume not, but you never know)?
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Elespider12 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:25 am

IAmAnIssue wrote:A couple of questions:

- Will Retributionist and Necromancer be able to reuse the same dead townie (do they share rot)?
- Will Retributionist die if they shoot a townie using a dead Vigilante (I assume not, but you never know)?


I second this first question, and if that is the case, if a Retributionist and a Necromancer both try to use the same corpse on the same night, which takes priority?

Another question: If Retributionist and Necromancer receive the results from roles they use, does this include Psychic results and seeing who evils visit if they use Spy?
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Szebo210 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:00 pm

Good changes but ranked will still heavily favour town.

Retributionist nerf is a good step in right direction since the win chances will be less determined by the actual rolelist (framer, forger and disguiser should still receive a buff). But even in the games where haden't been any retri and mafia had good rm roles like janitor bmer or consort town was still hugely favoured than mafia. Many people including me liked the previous suggestion that jailor shouldn't be able to jail the same person on consequative nights, I don't understand why it isn't arriving into the game since jailor obviously has too much power in their hands. The framer and disguiser ideas were also good.

Overall these changes are very nice but nothing will greatly change in ranked except that retri games won't be a nearly autowin for town.
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Brilliand » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:39 pm

Szebo210 wrote:Many people including me liked the previous suggestion that jailor shouldn't be able to jail the same person on consequative nights, I don't understand why it isn't arriving into the game since jailor obviously has too much power in their hands.


Yes, this surprises me. I thought for sure the consecutive jailing nerf would make it into the next patch.
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby shapesifter13 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:34 pm

Taunts still have the same purpose as before, except they can't be used by the dead to communicate with the living.
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Superalex11 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:20 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:Taunts still have the same purpose as before, except they can't be used by the dead to communicate with the living.

According to the OP, a dead player taunting a living player will show that living player that taunt, meaning a dead player will have communicated with a living player:
Achilles wrote:When a dead player taunts someone it will now only be seen by the taunted player and other dead players.
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Brilliand » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:21 pm

And worse, the living players have a way to definitely confirm that it was a dead player who sent the taunt, by asking the rest of the Town whether they saw the taunt too.

(Though arguably there isn't enough time in a game-day to play out a meta like that, so I'm not sure how much of a problem it will be in practice. Still, it's a concern.)
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Venusupreme » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:31 am

These changes are all good, however I do have to ask if you have forgotten to make Jailor unable to jail the same person 2 nights in a row, and to remove self-transportations. These are both extremely important balance changes for ranked (and TT in the Jailor's case) because it stops the Jailor from being able to RB the same person as long as it takes to find any other evils (IE: the town traitor, or any other mafia if they have the last MK). Transporter should lose self-transportations because it is a TS role that can protect itself infinite times as soon as they have identified one evil, which effectively just turns the game into a game of whack-a-mole for any evils trying to kill them.

Additionally, living players shouldn't see ANY taunts that are on them, regardless of whether or not they are the one being taunted.
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:18 pm

Spoiler:
Achilles wrote:Retributionist rework
The Retributionist has been completely reworked to be the good version of the Necromancer. The Ret can reanimate dead Town roles and use their night ability one more time. The Ret will receive important feedback of roles that it controls such as TI results or if a targets defense was too high when reanimating a Vigilante.
Image

Achilles wrote:Necromancer
The Necromancer will also have information forwarding like the Retributionist does.
Praise the Lord, thank you

Achilles wrote:Witch/CovenLeader
Witch/CL also gets information forwarding when controlling roles such as Sheriff, Lookout, Spy, Tracker, Investigator, Consigliere. The controlled role will no longer get the feedback making Witch/CL control more of a role blocking effect.
Interesting... I don't know what to think of this.

Achilles wrote:Ambusher
Ambusher will now get feedback when they attack someone
> Makes an Ambu change
> Does not remove that message
> argh.mp3
In all seriousness, this change is kinda cool, but idk how much it'll help Ambusher in the long run.

Achilles wrote:Juggernaut
It will now be much more likely for a Juggernaut to spawn in games.
I like! I do wonder how likely it will be relative to any other NK.

Achilles wrote:Taunts
When a dead player taunts someone it will now only be seen by the taunted player and other dead players.
Gonna add my voice to the people saying that allowing it to be seen by the taunted player causes problems

Achilles wrote:Targets Defense Is Too High
We have standardized this feedback to be more uniform for all cases in which an attackers target has defense higher than the attack. Most importantly Doctor heal and Crusader protection will now give this feedback to attackers, creating more claim space for evil roles with Basic defense.
This change is nice. I always found it weird that some forms of protection gave you the immune message (like BG/Surv vest and VH being bitten) but others don't (like Doc selfing).

Achilles wrote:Dual Targeting UI
Roles with two targets have had their UI improved
OMG yes this was one of the few things I actually didn't like about the new Unity UI and it's finally fixed thank you
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:14 pm

Venusupreme wrote:These changes are all good, however I do have to ask if you have forgotten to make Jailor unable to jail the same person 2 nights in a row, and to remove self-transportations. These are both extremely important balance changes for ranked (and TT in the Jailor's case) because it stops the Jailor from being able to RB the same person as long as it takes to find any other evils (IE: the town traitor, or any other mafia if they have the last MK). Transporter should lose self-transportations because it is a TS role that can protect itself infinite times as soon as they have identified one evil, which effectively just turns the game into a game of whack-a-mole for any evils trying to kill them.

Additionally, living players shouldn't see ANY taunts that are on them, regardless of whether or not they are the one being taunted.


I think the Jailor changes are planned for later and are generally only in the idea phase like Mafioso buff, I think this will change once this ranked season is off from what I've heard, Transporter generally needs some balance but Self transports might actually help evils less in certain cases when a player wants to fake claim trans ect. Generally I think transporter needs heavy work in general, people sleep on the role because it can cause disruption to the town. Taunt changes are a step in the right direction I personally do not care about using taunts I don't like them but people still paid for them, I'm just glad it will be a lot harder to meta game with them
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby TurdPile » Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:30 pm

Brilliand wrote:And worse, the living players have a way to definitely confirm that it was a dead player who sent the taunt, by asking the rest of the Town whether they saw the taunt too.


Taunts are supposed to be aesthetic and have zero impact on the game. And they are taunts, so obviously the taunted player should see when someone taunts them. Also, so what if a dead person taunts a living player? That provides no feedback. It's not like Townies can taunt the medusa anymore, as no one living, besides the Medusa, would be able to see it, and it would not serve their interest for them to share that they got taunted. Secondly, in what scenario would knowing the taunt came from dead chat impact the game?
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Brilliand » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:09 pm

TurdPile wrote:Also, so what if a dead person taunts a living player? That provides no feedback. It's not like Townies can taunt the medusa anymore, as no one living, besides the Medusa, would be able to see it, and it would not serve their interest for them to share that they got taunted. Secondly, in what scenario would knowing the taunt came from dead chat impact the game?


If a living player (a confirmed Townie) asks a multiple-choice question of the dead, saying "taunt me with X, Y or Z to indicate what the answer is". This would be especially effective if there are no dead scum, or all dead scum are known to have left; thus any taunt from the dead will be known-trustworthy.

It's simple enough to design a meta that would allow a dead player to communicate via two living confirmed townies a number from 1-15 (using two taunts in sequence from a list of 4 possible taunts), indicating which player number is assigned to the Medusa. Coordinating this would take maybe 10 seconds of game time, if everyone knows the meta and there are two confirmed townies who can be trusted to report what they were taunted with. Granted, it's pretty unlikely that enough players would learn the meta for it to be usable, but it's at least possible.

The first scenario (a simple multiple-choice question) is basically guaranteed to happen on occasion.
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby TurdPile » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:30 pm

Brilliand wrote:
TurdPile wrote:Also, so what if a dead person taunts a living player? That provides no feedback. It's not like Townies can taunt the medusa anymore, as no one living, besides the Medusa, would be able to see it, and it would not serve their interest for them to share that they got taunted. Secondly, in what scenario would knowing the taunt came from dead chat impact the game?


If a living player (a confirmed Townie) asks a multiple-choice question of the dead, saying "taunt me with X, Y or Z to indicate what the answer is". This would be especially effective if there are no dead scum, or all dead scum are known to have left; thus any taunt from the dead will be known-trustworthy.

It's simple enough to design a meta that would allow a dead player to communicate via two living confirmed townies a number from 1-15 (using two taunts in sequence from a list of 4 possible taunts), indicating which player number is assigned to the Medusa. Coordinating this would take maybe 10 seconds of game time, if everyone knows the meta and there are two confirmed townies who can be trusted to report what they were taunted with. Granted, it's pretty unlikely that enough players would learn the meta for it to be usable, but it's at least possible.

The first scenario (a simple multiple-choice question) is basically guaranteed to happen on occasion.


Granted. But it's not insta-reveal like it was before, and it would certainly take much more than 10 seconds to establish since there's taunt cooldown (the time it takes for taunt to animate). If removed from the person taunted, then might as well change taunts to become emotes or something.
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Re: Details of upcoming patch

Postby Superalex11 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:57 am

@TP it's like you've just not been paying attention to the taunt discussions at all. Nobody here is saying this isn't any better than before. Even after the change making taunts more easily purchasable, nobody was saying that wasn't a positive change. But you simply cannot deny that taunts as they exist now, and as they seem they will based on the OP here, provide an unfair advantage.
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