Town Traitor Beta Opening Friday!

[Achilles]

Oi vey, I did not like this role list. It's basically a copy paste of the Classic one, and the Classic role list isn't even that good on the Classic version of the mode.

I'll work on improving the list soon. I'm thinking I will replace Exe with another Random Coven to start.

[MysticMismagius]

Throwing Exe out of the role list would be a much appreciated start.

Some more in-depth discussion of the Coven role list was going on in the Town Traitor Role List board, in case you want to have a look at it.

[orangeandblack5]

Oi vey, I did not like this role list. It's basically a copy paste of the Classic one, and the Classic role list isn't even that good on the Classic version of the mode.

I'll work on improving the list soon. I'm thinking I will replace Exe with another Random Coven to start.

Once Coven has been worked on enough (I get that testing with limited players requires doing one at a time pretty much), I would definitely appreciate another look at the classic one! I think Mystic here probably had the closest to ideal role list suggestion thus far, as right now Escort/Jailor can completely shut down the Mafia if they get the singular killer, Executioner isn't adding a lot, and the lack of claimspace makes the game more focused on who is what than who is who.

Mayor/Jailor #HotTake, Mayor is more interesting as Town Traitor's resident mainstay TL than Jailor is. However, as a Traitor Jailor is less OP imo, so I could accept either role being here.
Town Investigative Remapped Sheriff as TI
Town Investigative Same as before
Town Protective Remapped Doc as TP
Town Protective Same as before
Town Killing Same as before
Town Support Same as before
Random Town Remapped Jailor/Mayor as RT, because guaranteed Jailor and guaranteed Mayor gives town a lot of power unless one of them happens to be Traitor
Random Town Remapped LO as RT, because 3 TI slots is a bit too much
Random Town Remapped Exe
Random Town Original RT slot
Godfather Same as before
Mafioso This is the best 4th Maf in a pre-TMK environment. If and when TMK is implemented, I'd want this to be replaced with an RM slot.
Mafia Deception (Replace with RM after rebalance patch)
Mafia Support (Replace with RM after rebalance patch)

I'd also look at which roles can be traitor again in an effort to reduce swing - Traitor Mayor and Jailor are probably the strongest, Vigilante is not far behind. I have yet to play with a Traitor Veteran but I imagine it is great as well. The real issue from this is that things like Traitor Medium/Sheriff are practically just a vote, so the variance in power is very large.

I'd be willing to give Traitor Vet until it's actually been shown to be too strong, but I think with the following role list you can fix a decent amount of the above issue with only two further changes:

Town Leader (cannot be Traitor)
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

As I've said somewhere, I do like Witch and its dynamic and I do wish that we could make things like the Mayor, Retributionist, and Jailor traitors so we could truly not trust anybody - but at the end of the day, the difference in power between these roles and others means it is impossible to make games with both feel fair. If we make it so that Town can only have one of the three via a new subalignment, "Town Leader", of which there can be no more than one in the game, we simultaneously prevent Town from rolling the Mayor/Jailor/Ret combo that is basically their ticket to a free win, and stop Mafia from getting Mayor or Jailor as Traitor and using that to get a basically free win. With both of these accomplished, the variance between different role list rands will be significantly reduced, putting less emphasis on which side has which roles and more on what actions the players take. Additionally, Retributionist is already 100% trustworthy, so there is already a role that can be completely trusted. This change extends that to Mayor and Jailor, but in return you can only have one of the three, a fair trade.

Lastly, Jailor and Vigilante both really need to not be 3-shot when Traitor. Getting three extra kills off pushes Vigilante, a role that is normally not anything super special, into the god tier, and Jailor, which was already there, just goes nuts. The only reliable way to find one of these roles is via Investigator, otherwise they just fake-claim something else and act like any other Mafia member, which is pretty boring from a game design perspective. There is an easy fix though - giving both Jailor's guilt of losing all further shots after shooting a Town member means that they bring one extra kill to the table rather than three, which is much more in line with other Traitor roles. I'd still take Jailor out, for the reasons stated above, but this ought to happen to Vig anyway.

While I'm on my little soapbox, this is a good time to say that we should extend this change to the normal Vigilante. Right now it can do anything from killing three evils outright to killing two town members with one missed shot. The variance between these cases is immense, and we should really try to tone it down. The most obvious way to do so is remove Vigilante suiciding if it hits town - no longer can one bullet take two town lives, the Vigilante just loses further shots á la Jailor. This is helpful for other reasons I won't really get into here. To help balance this out, we can just drop the number of shots Vig has to two, and now we have a much less swingy role!

[MysticMismagius]

Some things about your tweaks @orangeandblack5: I wrote all my role list ideas for this mode under the current mechanics. While I really like TL and I think it's a cool addition to the game, it doesn't exist yet, so I don't bother to include it.

I vehemently disagree with certain roles being unable to be Traitor. I give concession to Ret only because as things stand its ability actively harms the evil faction for which it works. But on principle I'm against the idea of certain roles being "safe" from the mode's main gimmick. It defeats the entire point of Town Traitor: which is a mode where no one can be trusted, not even the confirmed townies. If Mayor and Jailor are too OP to be Traitor, then they're too OP to be in the mode at all and they should be dispensed with outright.

Also, shouldn't this part be in the balance thread?

While I'm on my little soapbox, this is a good time to say that we should extend this change to the normal Vigilante. Right now it can do anything from killing three evils outright to killing two town members with one missed shot. The variance between these cases is immense, and we should really try to tone it down. The most obvious way to do so is remove Vigilante suiciding if it hits town - no longer can one bullet take two town lives, the Vigilante just loses further shots á la Jailor. This is helpful for other reasons I won't really get into here. To help balance this out, we can just drop the number of shots Vig has to two, and now we have a much less swingy role!

[Poirot633]

I vehemently disagree with certain roles being unable to be Traitor. I give concession to Ret only because as things stand its ability actively harms the evil faction for which it works. But on principle I'm against the idea of certain roles being "safe" from the mode's main gimmick. It defeats the entire point of Town Traitor: which is a mode where no one can be trusted, not even the confirmed townies. If Mayor and Jailor are too OP to be Traitor, then they're too OP to be in the mode at all and they should be dispensed with outright.

This ^

And let me add again that confirmed Exe defeats the purpose of the role, and doesn't make much sense in TT. I love the idea of having only town vs maf in this mode.

[techyleo]

Replace GA with pirate?

[joshdabozz]

dont replace ga, ga is fine, replace exe also beta for coven is broken its using classic tickets and once u run out u cant play it anymore @achilles

[orangeandblack5]

If Mayor and Jailor are too OP to be Traitor, then they're too OP to be in the mode at all and they should be dispensed with outright.

I'm 110% down with that

[emslaya]

Hi several other players and I have recently run out of classic tickets on PTR and can no longer play. Can we get a refill?

Ty achilles!!

[joshdabozz]

@achilles theres a glitch where coven traitor sees someone was jailed 3 times and no other coven see the message

[MysticMismagius]

Yeah I didn't see the message when I played as Coven.

On another note, I still saw the Traitor as red despite it apparently being fixed (but only sometimes: I saw it in one Coven game but not the one I had played just previously)
Spoiler:

[Towny]

Pizzarole time :ptr

[FAStorm322]

FAStorm322 PTR Name

[MaxCheeseright]

I don't think Jailor being able to be Traitor is fair, it seems way too op and makes mafia easily able to win. I think it's best to make jailor not able to be a traitor...

[atrufflewormono]

yo yo yo im back and requesting cOVEn tickets

[SGTkiller477]

In need of PTR tickets so i can try the new game mode


In game name SGTkiller477

[Transcender]

In need of PTR tickets so i can try the new game mode


In game name SGTkiller477

wrong thread

[pyroisshy]

Vigilante cannot shoot anyone at night after the latest system restart, there are no options to target anyone.

[orangeandblack5]

They finally added Citizen!

[Transcender]

They finally added Citizen!

what

[MysticMismagius]

They finally added Citizen!

what

T'was a joke about the Vigi bug. Since it can't shoot anyone, it's effectively a Vanilla townie (known as Citizen in the TG/FM parts of these forums)

[Transcender]

They finally added Citizen!

what

T'was a joke about the Vigi bug. Since it can't shoot anyone, it's effectively a Vanilla townie (known as Citizen in the TG/FM parts of these forums)

Oh i see
I do know what cit is though

[MysticMismagius]

Apologies, didn't realize who you were because of the name change.

[Transcender]

Apologies, didn't realize who you were because of the name change.

oh ok lol

[banana12345]

Hello,

Is it too late to try the town beta?