Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby wozearly » Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:51 pm

superboytim wrote:i'm not going through what you're saying point by point because that would be too much effort but it sounds like a lot of the issues you are saying now exist have always existed but are now more prevalent because aspects of the game are no longer clouded by the chaos that NK caused

ranked has always been absolute garbage in terms of game-to-game variety via non-chaotic elements because it wasn't necessary when there was a huge amount of game-to-game variety via chaotic elements, mainly brought about by NK. now that NK has been stripped from the mode, the mode's lack of game-to-game variety via non-chaotic elements becomes glaringly apparent; certain metas will now be even more centralising than they previously were. however, in the context of ranked the "fix" to that issue isn't introducing something that entirely goes against one of the main aspects of the mode (competition), it would be to make changes so that certain metas are not overly prevalent and there is an increase in game-to-game variety via non-chaotic elements, which would be far more consistent with the ideals of competition

your argument of 'technical balancers always win the argument' is correct in the scope of ranked, and rightfully so considering the mode is designed around being competitive. competition ideally rewards the better player/team and punishes the worse player/team, so naturally changes for ranked should gravitate towards better and more consistently fulfilling this ideal. outside the scope of ranked, almost all if not all of the game modes largely or entirely appeal to casual game ideals rather than competitive game ideals, so i really don't understand why people think that casual game ideals should be the main focus in the one mode where it absolutely shouldn't be when there is a large selection of casual game modes and zero competitive ones


Welcome to the forums, Tim. :)

The final paragraph in your post is, in a nutshell, the technical balancers' manifesto: Ranked is a specifically competitive environment, therefore all decisions that reduce the influence of random factors in who wins and loses are positive. AMikeCk captured the other slightly more emotive aspect running in tandem to this of "you should never lose a game that, through your actions, you deserved to win".

There's nothing inherently wrong with this view, it just comes with downsides that are often glossed over by its advocates. The largest of them, in my view, being that the more deterministic the game becomes the more that winning strategies will become increasingly formulaic and the more games will inevitably play out in highly similar ways each time. While that leads to a more technically balanced endpoint, once the winning strategies are learned it may not necessarily lead to a game that a large number of people want to replay hundreds of times over.

It may be worth drawing a comparison with the Classic roleset. In many ways, it's one of the most technically balanced role lists in ToS - it's also bemoaned for being overly predictable, boring and hideously Town-sided. That those aspects naturally walk hand in hand should not be a surprise. Basically, if the aim of Ranked is to be technically balanced to the fullest extent possible, thought needs to be given into how to avoid Ranked falling into Classic's trap. I'm pleased to see you zeroed straight in on this problem, but the killer is how you'd propose it be solved.

Personally, I disagree with associating random factors with "more casual", as I'd propose a slightly broader view of what "competitive" means more in line with the Legacy Ranked approach. To my eyes, how players deal with unknown and unpredictable factors can be part of the skill required to be good at the game unless a deliberate choice is made to remove it. It's not saying it should be the main focus, but an impactful level of unpredictability means you need to be able to adapt your plans to the situation as it emerges, not just deploy the same tried-and-tested strategy for all given situations. Seeing a skilled Legacy-Ranked Town adapt on the fly to realising that Vampires were in play, or Mafia flipping round to address a double-SK threat that was more dangerous to them than the Town's majority, was part of the reason I fell so deeply in love with ToS. While I am not necessarily advocating their return as-was in Ranked, that additional complexity in how the games could pan out has been lost on the journey.

My view is that consistently reducing randomness in the interests of faction balance without thought to the consequence on gameplay has been a well-intentioned mistake. For a long-term scoring system like ELO, short-term differences in faction balance for any individual game (e.g. WTF, we have 2x NK here - Town are screwed!) are not massively relevant as they'll even out over time through random distribution (ie, play a whole series of game and you're as likely to benefit and lose out from 2x NK scenarios as any other player, therefore skill remains the defining difference between two players' ELO scores).

Issues such as the Jailor meta are balancing problems irrespective of the discussion of the relative merits of increasing predictability vs unpredictability. That said, process of elimination strategies benefit from a highly predictable roleset - in the current Ranked, Town has an astonishingly clear and consistent awareness of what its own side and its enemies look like for an "uninformed majority" and the shift over time towards reducing unpredictability in the overall shape of factions and roles in play has made the Jailor meta consistently valuable as a strategy.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Joacgroso » Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:58 pm

Out of curiosity, how can you say the classic rolelist is one of the most balanced rolelists and also extremely town sided at the same time?
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Brilliand » Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:59 pm

As Joacgroso pointed out, a thing cannot be both "technically balanced" and "hideously Town-sided". Swing is not the only form of imbalance; a fixed advantage for one side or the other is also a form of imbalance, even more important than swing.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:06 pm

Joacgroso wrote:Out of curiosity, how can you say the classic rolelist is one of the most balanced rolelists and also extremely town sided at the same time?

Because people want... "chaos" add vampires to ranked if that's your objective.

No 9 T, 4 M, 1 Nk, 1 Ne wasn't "balanced" it was just a lot better then the oldest list in terms of balance.
I'm going to argue that this list has it's problems with the game being decided pretty early a lot of the time.

I'm going to argue that a 10v5 should be Seasons 6.
That doesn't mean I think that will be town sided BUT: I think the balance direction and nerfs to town and buffs to evils to the point where a 5v10 would be balanced seems good instead of having games end early.

I don't think we should push for chaotic roles like Nk in ranked instead we should be shifting the balance enough to make a 10v5 actually work, this in theory should create the most "ranked" and competitive Ranked.

That being said.

NK and even NB deserve a actual home and not all any.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby superboytim » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:33 am

wozearly wrote:Welcome to the forums, Tim. :)

thank u, im actually just flake's alt though which probably isn't surprising with the way i talk lol

wozearly wrote:The final paragraph in your post is, in a nutshell, the technical balancers' manifesto: Ranked is a specifically competitive environment, therefore all decisions that reduce the influence of random factors in who wins and loses are positive. AMikeCk captured the other slightly more emotive aspect running in tandem to this of "you should never lose a game that, through your actions, you deserved to win".

There's nothing inherently wrong with this view, it just comes with downsides that are often glossed over by its advocates. The largest of them, in my view, being that the more deterministic the game becomes the more that winning strategies will become increasingly formulaic and the more games will inevitably play out in highly similar ways each time. While that leads to a more technically balanced endpoint, once the winning strategies are learned it may not necessarily lead to a game that a large number of people want to replay hundreds of times over.

i think maybe my biggest issue with what you're saying is that better balance implies a "deterministic" approach when this, if anything, is the exact opposite of true. balance advocates for giving players more opportunity to outplay, which means providing them more options to utilise skill and impact their win chances through their own means rather than through external factors they cannot control, without giving them so much versatility and power that there is little room for counterplay from opponents. a higher influence of random factors with regards to the game's outcome lean far more on the side of a deterministic approach; the game decides the outcome in greater capacity and therefore the player or team has less room to control their own win chances.

balance does not imply formulaic play either, it strives for the exact opposite if anything. 'formulaic' play leans more on the spectrum of the game spoonfeeding the town information rather than the town outplaying opponents in order to learn this information, which goes against the balance ideal of the player or team being more in control of their win chances rather than the game itself.

wozearly wrote:It may be worth drawing a comparison with the Classic roleset. In many ways, it's one of the most technically balanced role lists in ToS - it's also bemoaned for being overly predictable, boring and hideously Town-sided. That those aspects naturally walk hand in hand should not be a surprise. Basically, if the aim of Ranked is to be technically balanced to the fullest extent possible, thought needs to be given into how to avoid Ranked falling into Classic's trap. I'm pleased to see you zeroed straight in on this problem, but the killer is how you'd propose it be solved.

classic mode is in no way shape or form "technically balanced", it is in many ways the antithesis of balance ideals. horrendously townsided, extremely formulaic, overwhelming strategies on town's side - none of these are things that balance strives for.

not following the route of classic mode is fairly simple imo. i think the main issue is getting the current ranked that has already followed the route of Classic mode to certain extents in different areas for worse to a state where these issues are minimised as much as possible. writing out the ways in which i'd do both would honestly take far too long and i'm not willing to write it now but i may think about it later

wozearly wrote:Personally, I disagree with associating random factors with "more casual", as I'd propose a slightly broader view of what "competitive" means more in line with the Legacy Ranked approach. To my eyes, how players deal with unknown and unpredictable factors can be part of the skill required to be good at the game unless a deliberate choice is made to remove it. It's not saying it should be the main focus, but an impactful level of unpredictability means you need to be able to adapt your plans to the situation as it emerges, not just deploy the same tried-and-tested strategy for all given situations. Seeing a skilled Legacy-Ranked Town adapt on the fly to realising that Vampires were in play, or Mafia flipping round to address a double-SK threat that was more dangerous to them than the Town's majority, was part of the reason I fell so deeply in love with ToS. While I am not necessarily advocating their return as-was in Ranked, that additional complexity in how the games could pan out has been lost on the journey.

chaotic elements like NK and Vampire in this game are considered more suitable for a casual experience in the same way items in smash bros are considered more suitable for a casual experience. sure, there is a certain skill involved in how items are utilised and adapted to, but they also bring about a massive drawback in terms of a lack of fairness, something competitive absolutely does not want; it fairly consistently happens that one slight mistake, not knowing one thing among the innumerable situations that items elicit for which counterplay is not humanly feasible, or even something entirely out of your control, can mean a huge punishment where it was clearly not deserved. if this skill must coexist with such drawbacks in fairness, then is it really a skill that is desired for competitive?

wozearly wrote:My view is that consistently reducing randomness in the interests of faction balance without thought to the consequence on gameplay has been a well-intentioned mistake. For a long-term scoring system like ELO, short-term differences in faction balance for any individual game (e.g. WTF, we have 2x NK here - Town are screwed!) are not massively relevant as they'll even out over time through random distribution (ie, play a whole series of game and you're as likely to benefit and lose out from 2x NK scenarios as any other player, therefore skill remains the defining difference between two players' ELO scores).

outside of elo, people don't care about whether or not people suffer the same unfairness in the same quantity as them over a long period of time nearly as much as said unfairness existing for anyone in the first place. people want the person/team who played better to win in the moment, and randomness having more affect on the game's outcome means that ideal is far less consistent. as far as elo rating goes you are half correct (even though skill is still the defining difference between Elo ratings with random elements over a long period of time, it would generally be worse and less consistent in reflecting true skill differential within any reasonable amount of games compared to a scenario where these random elements do not exist), but in terms of how people feel you couldn't be more wrong in saying that it isn't massively relevant; the latter is significantly more important imo.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby superboytim » Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:15 am

fwiw i think a game mode that emphasises skill in terms of adapting to and utilising chaotic elements in a way that is more stable than something like All Any would be interesting and fun, and i would absolutely advocate for it. but i don't think the best place for this is in the main competitive game mode due to the huge sacrifice in fairness that must coexist with it.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Cookazoo2 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:20 pm

superboytim wrote:fwiw i think a game mode that emphasises skill in terms of adapting to and utilising chaotic elements in a way that is more stable than something like All Any would be interesting and fun, and i would absolutely advocate for it. but i don't think the best place for this is in the main competitive game mode due to the huge sacrifice in fairness that must coexist with it.


Let's just add another lobby for the legacy ranked lists and let the TvM purists have their list
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby superboytim » Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:14 am

Cookazoo2 wrote:
superboytim wrote:fwiw i think a game mode that emphasises skill in terms of adapting to and utilising chaotic elements in a way that is more stable than something like All Any would be interesting and fun, and i would absolutely advocate for it. but i don't think the best place for this is in the main competitive game mode due to the huge sacrifice in fairness that must coexist with it.


Let's just add another lobby for the legacy ranked lists and let the TvM purists have their list

yh that was sort of the implication

even though this probably wasn't what you're saying here, it might not be a good idea to bring back multiple of the past ranked lists in separate modes because there would probably be a playerbase divide resulting in a smaller community in each mode than desired. the best thing to do would probably either be some sort of rotation between the desirable past ranked role lists and keeping them within one game mode, or create one mode with a role list that would encapsulate past ranked role lists in a way that is most desired among the community. finding the most desired role lists can be done via a poll or something of the sort
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Cookazoo2 » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:54 am

superboytim wrote:
Cookazoo2 wrote:
superboytim wrote:fwiw i think a game mode that emphasises skill in terms of adapting to and utilising chaotic elements in a way that is more stable than something like All Any would be interesting and fun, and i would absolutely advocate for it. but i don't think the best place for this is in the main competitive game mode due to the huge sacrifice in fairness that must coexist with it.


Let's just add another lobby for the legacy ranked lists and let the TvM purists have their list

yh that was sort of the implication

even though this probably wasn't what you're saying here, it might not be a good idea to bring back multiple of the past ranked lists in separate modes because there would probably be a playerbase divide resulting in a smaller community in each mode than desired. the best thing to do would probably either be some sort of rotation between the desirable past ranked role lists and keeping them within one game mode, or create one mode with a role list that would encapsulate past ranked role lists in a way that is most desired among the community. finding the most desired role lists can be done via a poll or something of the sort


One rotating mode.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Joacgroso » Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:13 am

Yeah, there should be a more casual list that tries to be balanced but still includes jesters and NK, maybe even NB.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby AMikeCk » Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:40 pm

Honestly, I would be all in favor of having ranked use a rotating set of different role lists, each of which is well-balanced. That could be a good way of providing both variety and competitive integrity.

My big issue with the trend of removing any level of variance from the competitive game mode is the implicit assumption that skill in Town of Salem boils down to who is better at memorizing and executing the optimal metagame. I strongly believe that getting caught off guard by unexpected developments and being able to adapt accordingly on the fly is a form of skill expression.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Brilliand » Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:58 pm

AMikeCk wrote:My big issue with the trend of removing any level of variance from the competitive game mode is the implicit assumption that skill in Town of Salem boils down to who is better at memorizing and executing the optimal metagame. I strongly believe that getting caught off guard by unexpected developments and being able to adapt accordingly on the fly is a form of skill expression.


Ideally, any metagame that forms should be broken up by plays made by the opposing team. The Mafia is the 'chaos' faction in this game; the rolelist doesn't need to provide the chaos.

(Of course, that assumes the Mafia is powerful enough to do its job.)
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby wozearly » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:13 am

superboytim wrote:thank u, im actually just flake's alt though which probably isn't surprising with the way i talk lol


Ah, for the love of Jesters. If I'd known you were Flake, I'd have responded slightly differently given we've had variations of elements of this conversation three or four times by now. ;)

I think it's fair to say we approach the issue from slightly different perspectives. I won't rehash all of the old discussions, but while I agree with you entirely that technical balance does not necessarily have to result in a deterministic approach, and that reducing the frequency and impact of random factors will generally lead to a more competitive outcome, I would nonetheless point out that pursuing technical balance in a game like ToS typically has led to a more deterministic approach in strategies. And we can agree to disagree on the importance and impact of random factors on fairness when it comes to ELO ratings...hell, we went through an entire thread proposing how ELO could potentially be reworked and being blunt there are more issues surrounding the impact of matchmaking on counterintuitive ELO results than there are from 'excessive' randomness.

If it is possible to create a marvellously technically balanced Ranked environment, plus a setup which is actually fun to replay multiple times, and without tearing up balance in other modes, then I'd be interested to see it...but in reality, it's incredibly complicated to get right without a full rewrite of ToS to be a different kind of game - as I think you discovered during the epic Ranked Rework thread. I continue to feel that the technical balancers as a whole tend to underestimate the benefit to gameplay and replayability of, for example, the neutral factions. A certain degree of randomness will always be required in a game like ToS and a certain degree of randomness is actively desirable - whether those two should both be set at the absolute minimum for Ranked is an entirely reasonable question which I suspect we'll continue to hold different views on for the forseeable future.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby wozearly » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:27 am

Joacgroso wrote:Out of curiosity, how can you say the classic rolelist is one of the most balanced rolelists and also extremely town sided at the same time?


Brilliand wrote:As Joacgroso pointed out, a thing cannot be both "technically balanced" and "hideously Town-sided". Swing is not the only form of imbalance; a fixed advantage for one side or the other is also a form of imbalance, even more important than swing.


Several aspects of the Classic role list have been argued for adoption by technical balancers; a list with a bare minimum of randomly assigned positions (and therefore a highly predictable Town vs Non-Town setup), disallowing the rolling of Survivors, Amnes or Vampires; forcing the NK to consistently be Serial Killer. If you compare Classic to Legacy Ranked, you'll see that many of the changes to the Ranked list have made it more closely resemble the setup in Classic, with the exception of the broader number of RT roles and the recent experimentation of 10 vs 5 with less Neutral involvement.

The net result of those changes, without other major changes to balance happening alongside, is an extremely Town-sided roleset where games tend to play out in quite similar ways if you have a few competent players in the mix amongst Town and Mafia. That was fundamentally the point I was making, and the warning I was giving. I'm not holding up Classic as an example of where balance *should* be for Ranked or implying that's what the technical balancers are seeking, but as an illustration of the type of pitfalls the pursuit of technical balance can run into if there isn't free reign to completely redesign the game to be more fundamentally suited for technical balancing.

That reasons that the Classic role list doesn't actually deliver balanced gameplay is down to other missing factors in faction balance between Town, Mafia and (to a much lesser extent) the Neutrals. This is also true of Ranked. While you might find me disagreeing with people arguing for the removal of neutrals, or the banning of various roles from the Ranked roleset as a simple solution rather than seeking a rework to them, when it comes to broader balancing points about Mafia historically lacking the ability to effectively deceive Town, or the need to revisit problematic roles such as the former Spy, Retri, Forger and Disguiser, often we're arguing in favour of similar solutions.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby wozearly » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:43 am

AMikeCk wrote:Honestly, I would be all in favor of having ranked use a rotating set of different role lists, each of which is well-balanced. That could be a good way of providing both variety and competitive integrity.

My big issue with the trend of removing any level of variance from the competitive game mode is the implicit assumption that skill in Town of Salem boils down to who is better at memorizing and executing the optimal metagame. I strongly believe that getting caught off guard by unexpected developments and being able to adapt accordingly on the fly is a form of skill expression.


Again, totally with you on this.

If there was a desire to strike an accord between the two sides here, I would also be an advocate of Ranked using a rotating set of role lists and including something which looks more like, say, the Legacy Ranked roleset. But I'm not sure how palatable that would be for people on the other side of the divide.


In principle I'd have no problem with there being a separate game mode for this type of roleset - for argument's sake I'll call it Flagship, as it's a term that was used before. Basically, the Flagship roleset would be intended as a balanced and competitive roleset, but with a deliberately greater random factor allowing for the full variety of roles in ToS to appear. It would be separate from Ranked and may or may not be ELO rated; most likely not to keep things simple. The overwhelming majority of role and faction balancing tweaks would benefit Flagship and Ranked to the same degree, so it's unlikely the two would be fundamentally at odds.

In practice, the difficulty with this is it would likely sweep up a portion of the Ranked playerbase who would prefer it and I'm not sure further splitting the Ranked playerbase is a good idea with current numbers, since we already see more overlap between ELO levels in games than is really ideal for the way Ranked was envisaged.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby AMikeCk » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:53 am

wozearly wrote:In practice, the difficulty with this is it would likely sweep up a portion of the Ranked playerbase who would prefer it and I'm not sure further splitting the Ranked playerbase is a good idea with current numbers, since we already see more overlap between ELO levels in games than is really ideal for the way Ranked was envisaged.


I am also reluctant to split the already-thin Ranked playerbase, but is it worse to lose Ranked players to another mode within ToS, or to lose Ranked players to other games entirely? Actually, I'd be interested to see what player numbers have looked like in general since the new patch dropped. There definitely seem to be people saying they don't want to play Ranked anymore after this patch, but what kind of drop (if any) are we actually seeing?

wozearly wrote:If there was a desire to strike an accord between the two sides here, I would also be an advocate of Ranked using a rotating set of role lists and including something which looks more like, say, the Legacy Ranked roleset. But I'm not sure how palatable that would be for people on the other side of the divide.


True. I would love to hear someone weigh in on this idea from the technical balance perspective.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby OreCreeper » Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:04 am

wozearly wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:Out of curiosity, how can you say the classic rolelist is one of the most balanced rolelists and also extremely town sided at the same time?


Brilliand wrote:As Joacgroso pointed out, a thing cannot be both "technically balanced" and "hideously Town-sided". Swing is not the only form of imbalance; a fixed advantage for one side or the other is also a form of imbalance, even more important than swing.


Several aspects of the Classic role list have been argued for adoption by technical balancers; a list with a bare minimum of randomly assigned positions (and therefore a highly predictable Town vs Non-Town setup), disallowing the rolling of Survivors, Amnes or Vampires; forcing the NK to consistently be Serial Killer. If you compare Classic to Legacy Ranked, you'll see that many of the changes to the Ranked list have made it more closely resemble the setup in Classic, with the exception of the broader number of RT roles and the recent experimentation of 10 vs 5 with less Neutral involvement.

The net result of those changes, without other major changes to balance happening alongside, is an extremely Town-sided roleset where games tend to play out in quite similar ways if you have a few competent players in the mix amongst Town and Mafia. That was fundamentally the point I was making, and the warning I was giving. I'm not holding up Classic as an example of where balance *should* be for Ranked or implying that's what the technical balancers are seeking, but as an illustration of the type of pitfalls the pursuit of technical balance can run into if there isn't free reign to completely redesign the game to be more fundamentally suited for technical balancing.

That reasons that the Classic role list doesn't actually deliver balanced gameplay is down to other missing factors in faction balance between Town, Mafia and (to a much lesser extent) the Neutrals. This is also true of Ranked. While you might find me disagreeing with people arguing for the removal of neutrals, or the banning of various roles from the Ranked roleset as a simple solution rather than seeking a rework to them, when it comes to broader balancing points about Mafia historically lacking the ability to effectively deceive Town, or the need to revisit problematic roles such as the former Spy, Retri, Forger and Disguiser, often we're arguing in favour of similar solutions.

Nobody has argued for less "random" slots, only for the removal of most of the slots that can spawn neutral roles, leaving only the NE alignment to spawn in ranked. Nobody, as far as I've seen, has argued for ranked to go down the same path as classic. I don't know anyone who wants more than 1 or 2 fixed role slots in ranked (I've seen people argue for a guaranteed mayor, but no more than that). Also, classic has both jester and exe, as well as a serial killer, so the gamemode actually went in a completely different direction than what people are hoping for ranked. You seem to think that when people want to get rid of the "random" factors, they mean to get rid of randomness completely, but that's not the case. Randomness is actually good for balance, in a sense, but the problems that arise with the existence of NKs/NCs/NBs result in an overall net detriment to ranked with the existence of those roles.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby AMikeCk » Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:57 pm

OreCreeper wrote:Nobody has argued for less "random" slots, only for the removal of most of the slots that can spawn neutral roles, leaving only the NE alignment to spawn in ranked.


The problem is that this specific implementation of that idea has made NEs frustrating and ineffective. Jesters, Witches, and Executioners have something in common: they are all way, way weaker when you know for a fact that they're in the game. My concern is that I'm seeing people who are using this rolelist's bafflingly bad use of NEs to argue that neutrals are always bad for balance and that 10v5 is the only way to go for "real" competitive gameplay.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby DiamondRanger8 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:06 pm

Personally, I still stand by that Neutral are better for the competitive balance and for entertainment value than faction v faction modes. It removed the purpose of most of the Investigator results, and now, the Town doesn't have to worry about priorities of who they should lynch. Instead, it's just, "They're Mafia, lynch them" and there's much less strategy in lynching imo.
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Also no I am not going to get a PFP because... (JK I'm gonna change my PFP every time I get a new role, if I can find a good picture for it that is)


My best role ideas:

The Possessor

Arms Dealer

The Reaper

Witch Hunter

Serial Killer (Buff)
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Cookazoo2 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:09 pm

I also agree, as Mafia's about complicated relationships, right?
Last edited by Cookazoo2 on Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Ezradekezra » Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:22 pm

DiamondRanger8 wrote:Personally, I still stand by that Neutral are better for the competitive balance and for entertainment value than faction v faction modes. It removed the purpose of most of the Investigator results, and now, the Town doesn't have to worry about priorities of who they should lynch. Instead, it's just, "They're Mafia, lynch them" and there's much less strategy in lynching imo.

I don't see how the removal of NKs makes Investigator worse

Also,
Spoiler: Image
Cookazoo2 wrote:
DiamondRanger8 wrote:Personally, I still stand by that Neutral are better for the competitive balance and for entertainment value than faction v faction modes. It removed the purpose of most of the Investigator results, and now, the Town doesn't have to worry about priorities of who they should lynch. Instead, it's just, "They're Mafia, lynch them" and there's much less strategy in lynching imo.

https://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=105361
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby Cookazoo2 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:44 pm

Sorry about that, differing forum policies.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby OreCreeper » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:00 pm

DiamondRanger8 wrote:Personally, I still stand by that Neutral are better for the competitive balance and for entertainment value than faction v faction modes. It removed the purpose of most of the Investigator results, and now, the Town doesn't have to worry about priorities of who they should lynch. Instead, it's just, "They're Mafia, lynch them" and there's much less strategy in lynching imo.

I don't know if you just play with bad players, but as far as I could remember, town lynched/killed anyone who they found out were mafia even back when NK was in ranked.
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:30 pm

OreCreeper wrote:
DiamondRanger8 wrote:Personally, I still stand by that Neutral are better for the competitive balance and for entertainment value than faction v faction modes. It removed the purpose of most of the Investigator results, and now, the Town doesn't have to worry about priorities of who they should lynch. Instead, it's just, "They're Mafia, lynch them" and there's much less strategy in lynching imo.

I don't know if you just play with bad players, but as far as I could remember, town lynched/killed anyone who they found out were mafia even back when NK was in ranked.

If you have a scummy Doctor claim and a scummy Sheriff claim in an SK game who are you going to push/check? What about in a game with no NKs?
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Re: Patch 3.3.2 Ranked Season 5

Postby OreCreeper » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:04 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
DiamondRanger8 wrote:Personally, I still stand by that Neutral are better for the competitive balance and for entertainment value than faction v faction modes. It removed the purpose of most of the Investigator results, and now, the Town doesn't have to worry about priorities of who they should lynch. Instead, it's just, "They're Mafia, lynch them" and there's much less strategy in lynching imo.

I don't know if you just play with bad players, but as far as I could remember, town lynched/killed anyone who they found out were mafia even back when NK was in ranked.

If you have a scummy Doctor claim and a scummy Sheriff claim in an SK game who are you going to push/check? What about in a game with no NKs?

It really doesn't matter because the SK can be both the sheriff and the doctor claim. I would probably push the sheriff claim first actually, because sheriff is almost always a suspicious claim while some evils with the exception of some RMs are more hesitant to claim TP because of the TP/LO meta. If it's a scummy sheriff vs scummy anything, the sheriff claim would immediately be more suspicious in my eyes, unless the other guy is like a vigilante claim who hasn't shot at all on d6.
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