Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:35 am

OreCreeper wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Ultimately though I think the best fix for Town stacking visits is just... Osservatore

Honestly I’m not too against this but the role is pretty weak on its own so it should be paired with a non investigative ability. I’ve proposed a Mafia tracker that can guess who a player visits and kill the player with a correct guess, while learning who they visit at the end of a night. The lookout mechanic can be added as an extension to the forger as a separate ability from their forging ability, since forger is already in the same result as lookout anyways.

I think Traitor Lookout has proven that the watch ability is strong enough on its own.

Add in a track for coverage and I'm quite convinced it's one of the strongest Mafia roles at the moment, even without reading whispers instead of Blackmailer.

Giving it KP for guesses is certainly unnecessary.
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby EqsyLootz » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:27 am

The main reason town has higher W/L is because theres 9 Town in ranked so considering town loses more games it means more people lose elo compared to the slim ammount of elo loss from 4 evils or NK.
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby LCo » Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:13 pm

Liking the changes so far but the LO nerf isn't really doing much as there's rarely more than 3 visits anyway. If you really wanted to visibly nerf lookout make it 2 visits max.
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby FrenchyTheSphee » Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:59 pm

After playing with the changes, it seems like none of the changes really made a strong impact except the Arsonist buff. Other than that Serial killer is the same exact level as he was just a bit more buffed and easier to play and WW I have not seen much of an impact for as well as Lookout.

Nonetheless, the changes are fantastic and after a couple more patch notes of this Neutral killings and Mafia will become town level strong.

Good job Shapeshifter, you are doing a great job!
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby Venusupreme » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:29 pm

I'm just gonna repost this comment I made on the last thread because it's still relevant.

Good changes for WW, Jugg, and Psychic.

Arso would be good, if not for the fact that dousing the Witch upon being visited means that witch cannot side with arso anymore in ranked. I believe that arso should have the option to stay home and douse visitors instead of going out to visit. That way they won’t kill a witch who visits them. If you prefer, we could also just have witch be immune to the "passive dousing" of visiting an arsonist.

Lookout should not be an RNG based role. If you’re not willing to get rid of d1 chat (which is understandable) then give forger another ability to serve as a mafia lookout instead of forging a will if they so choose. This makes LO much harder to confirm and makes it much easier for mafia to learn of any TPs who visit the jailor (even without a BMer) night 1.

Jailor still shouldn’t be able to jail the same person 2 nights in a row, and trans still needs to lose self-transportations (or at least limit them to one per game). That transporter thing is NEEDED in ranked.

Lookout seeing more than 3 visits on a target anyway is already a relatively uncommon occurrence so this nerf didn't do much. If you really want to nerf LO, what you should do is revert it, and buff Forger like I've described here.

There will be those who argue that a Mafia Lookout should be its own role. While at first, that sounds like a good idea, they need to keep in mind that if you do that, you leave Forger as underpowered as it currently is. By buffing Forger, you also nerf Lookout.

Serial Killer shouldn't be able to kill their intended target AND their roleblocker. It's good that they can choose whether or not to kill the one who blocks them, but you've made SK absurdly powerful despite the fact that he was by far the closest NK to being balanced.
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby OreCreeper » Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:01 pm

Easy fix for lookout, take Osservatore, take the lookout part, add it as a buff extension to forger. Take the tracker part, make it something like this: Stalker.
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby Brilliand » Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:10 pm

OreCreeper wrote:Easy fix for lookout, take Osservatore, take the lookout part, add it as a buff extension to forger.


If you give Forger the Lookout ability, most decent players will stop trying to forge anyone ever, and just use the stronger Lookout power.

Then we'll have a "forger" that isn't a forger at all, and we'll have to rename it to Osservatore... why did you want to put this on the "Forger" again?
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:24 pm

Brilliand wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:Easy fix for lookout, take Osservatore, take the lookout part, add it as a buff extension to forger.


If you give Forger the Lookout ability, most decent players will stop trying to forge anyone ever, and just use the stronger Lookout power.

Then we'll have a "forger" that isn't a forger at all, and we'll have to rename it to Osservatore... why did you want to put this on the "Forger" again?

I think it’s because he want’s Forger to have a better purpose, since Forger is widely considered the worst role in the game. But giving it LO abilities is really off the wall and makes no sense.

If we want Forger to be better at, well, forging things, then here’s my idea.

Somehow, someway, as a Day ability, the Forger can screw with the chat logs.

Example: 3 times per game, if a player has said something, the Forger can use their ability, which opens the chat logs.
Then, they may choose any message that has been sent by a player until that point.
Once they do so, they will be able to edit that message. No one is notified of the edit, but the forger is notified that it succeeded. That message will show the edited message to ANY player that views, copies, or anything relating to that message.
These forges are not linked to the Night forges, and have different charges.

in this idea, it is a real time thing, so if another player is checking the logs as you forge a message, they will literally see it change right in front of them.

as per usual, feel free to steal, build upon, insult, or anything this idea. Just me being a stupido and tossing bad ideas
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby Brilliand » Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:28 pm

Actually proposing Forger fixes should probably wait until the devs post a thread about Forger (or post it in Role Ideas if it isn't there already).
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:18 pm

Brilliand wrote:Actually proposing Forger fixes should probably wait until the devs post a thread about Forger (or post it in Role Ideas if it isn't there already).

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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby cob709 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:24 pm

TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:Easy fix for lookout, take Osservatore, take the lookout part, add it as a buff extension to forger.


If you give Forger the Lookout ability, most decent players will stop trying to forge anyone ever, and just use the stronger Lookout power.

Then we'll have a "forger" that isn't a forger at all, and we'll have to rename it to Osservatore... why did you want to put this on the "Forger" again?

I think it’s because he want’s Forger to have a better purpose, since Forger is widely considered the worst role in the game. But giving it LO abilities is really off the wall and makes no sense.

If we want Forger to be better at, well, forging things, then here’s my idea.

Somehow, someway, as a Day ability, the Forger can screw with the chat logs.

Example: 3 times per game, if a player has said something, the Forger can use their ability, which opens the chat logs.
Then, they may choose any message that has been sent by a player until that point.
Once they do so, they will be able to edit that message. No one is notified of the edit, but the forger is notified that it succeeded. That message will show the edited message to ANY player that views, copies, or anything relating to that message.
These forges are not linked to the Night forges, and have different charges.

in this idea, it is a real time thing, so if another player is checking the logs as you forge a message, they will literally see it change right in front of them.

as per usual, feel free to steal, build upon, insult, or anything this idea. Just me being a stupido and tossing bad ideas

but chat logs get so laggggyyyy
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby wozearly » Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:44 am

Kirize12 wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:Lookout nerf is cool but needs a clear order so as to not be RNG-based

Investigatives < Protectives < Disruption < Killers


A known order gives the Town too much information IMO. With this ordering, if there are too many visitors, the Lookout has evidence that those who showed up are Investigative/Protective and those that didn't are more likely Disruption/Killers.

Also, this still has RNG in which roles within the same category show, when the line has to be drawn mid-category.

My preferred solution is to show the lookout next to nothing (a visitor count at most) if too many people visit his target.

That's still less power than old Lookout, and use input order in that case.


If the order has any structure to it, evils don't have a cat's chance in hell of credibly claiming Lookout - it's difficult enough to present an effective fake of who the actual visitors were, without having to also get the correct order they'd be shown in. This is actually a pretty good use of RNG effects to disrupt the Lookout from being overly effective in the "TP/LO/Escort/Spy on me" meta. The only thing about it that I disagree with is that I feel it should kick in on 2+ rather than 3+, as 3+ visits are incredibly rare outside of N1 where 2+ gives RMs a chance to cast doubt on Lookout findings and sustain a fake Lookout claim more readily, but it's such a much-needed change that I'm not going to overly complain at this point.

Other thoughts:

Arso buff
I agree that something like this was needed. It does make the Arso more WW-like in terms of its potential impact, but once people get the idea that the TP/LO meta now delivers a 1/3 chance of Town being crushed by the Arsonist and that risk isn't worth taking, it should settle down. Definitely one to watch, though.

I would also echo Venusupreme's point. Passive dousing should not apply to the Witch - otherwise from the moment you've controlled the Arsonist, you've automatically lost a potential NK ally and have no choice but to keep re-controlling them until you can remove them from the game. That's a pretty rubbish situation all round. Ideally, Witch should be immune to passive dousing as a starting point - there may be reasonable logic in making the Witch immune to dousing entirely, to open the door to potential Witch+Arso alliances; currently it requires a hideously large amount of trust on the Witch's part.

SK buff
Liking this a lot; gives the SK more tactical options to deal with the depressingly high number of circumstances it can be found out through no fault of its own. Roleblock penetration in addition to Cautious seems a little overly strong...but will be interested to see how it plays out in practice.

WW buff
Liking this idea a lot as well, as it allows the WW to have more SK-like control and decisions at the critical endgame stage.

Jugg buff
Seems reasonable. Juggs did take a little too long to become truly dangerous in the past; speeding this up seems like a good solution. Still has horrible Investigator results, albeit marginally better than "This person is 100% a Juggernaut", so all good there. Guess we'll see how it works out in practice.
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:59 am

At least, unlike WW, it's visits to yourself

That's never controllable, but it's a heck of a lot more controllable than visits to others are
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby OreCreeper » Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:31 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:At least, unlike WW, it's visits to yourself

That's never controllable, but it's a heck of a lot more controllable than visits to others are

Still though the buff is either completely broken or completely useless (one game like half the town visited the arso out of chance and arso ignited on n3, killing everyone. The other game, arso was never visited and only had 2 people doused by N4 and lost horribly.
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby Venusupreme » Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:34 pm

It doesn't matter what the role is called as long as it's balanced. Don't put lore before balance.

Also, LO powers for Forger aren't "off the wall" and don't "make no sense". For starters, Forger is in the Lookout's Investigator results meaning that Investigator can basically instantly know that a Forger (or Witch) is evil if they don't have a good fake Lookout will. And, as I've said a million times now, doing this will decrease the power of the Jailor meta, will nerf the overpowered Lookout without having to directly change it, and will buff an underpowered role.
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby Venusupreme » Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:39 pm

Oh and I won't wait to post the way to balance Forger for its own thread to appear, not when the way to fix it is heavily tied into a severely misguided change that was made in this recent patch (which needs to be reverted).
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby OreCreeper » Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:50 pm

Please fucking revert this stupid ass werewolf buff PLEASE. Just lost another mafia game to this bullshit because town was siding WW.
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby Venusupreme » Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:04 pm

OreCreeper wrote:Please fucking revert this stupid ass werewolf buff PLEASE. Just lost another mafia game to this bullshit because town was siding WW.

The WW buff is good. It's just Town's mentality that NK should always win over Mafia, unfortunately.
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby CrimsonKatana » Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:43 pm

After this update my plan is to never side with NK
There really was no light in my room and I really couldn't see my keyboard
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:58 pm

Venusupreme wrote:It doesn't matter what the role is called as long as it's balanced. Don't put lore before balance.

While that's true, it wouldn't make sense to have a doctor that interrogates people :D .

Venusupreme wrote:Also, LO powers for Forger aren't "off the wall" and don't "make no sense". For starters, Forger is in the Lookout's Investigator results meaning that Investigator can basically instantly know that a Forger (or Witch) is evil if they don't have a good fake Lookout will. And, as I've said a million times now, doing this will decrease the power of the Jailor meta, will nerf the overpowered Lookout without having to directly change it, and will buff an underpowered role.

It's a good idea. Just, not for the Forger.

Here's my idea: Remove Forger from the damn game and replace it with a Mafia LO.
Or atleast make Forger usable. (like that's ever gonna happen)
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby Venusupreme » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:39 pm

Hellosither wrote:
TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:
Venusupreme wrote:Also, LO powers for Forger aren't "off the wall" and don't "make no sense". For starters, Forger is in the Lookout's Investigator results meaning that Investigator can basically instantly know that a Forger (or Witch) is evil if they don't have a good fake Lookout will. And, as I've said a million times now, doing this will decrease the power of the Jailor meta, will nerf the overpowered Lookout without having to directly change it, and will buff an underpowered role.

It's a good idea. Just, not for the Forger.

Here's my idea: Remove Forger from the damn game and replace it with a Mafia LO.
Or atleast make Forger usable. (like that's ever gonna happen)

the issue with that is that the devs don't like removing roles, they prefer reworking currently existing roles

Yep, pretty much. That's why Forger needs to get this as a second ability.

"It doesn't make sense for Doctor to interrogate people" while that's true, there is also no REASON for the doctor to gain that ability. Forger, on the other hand, DOES have one. Just say that their skilled eye is good for watching, just like it is for examining and imitating handwriting.
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:57 pm

Hellosither wrote:
TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:
Venusupreme wrote:Also, LO powers for Forger aren't "off the wall" and don't "make no sense". For starters, Forger is in the Lookout's Investigator results meaning that Investigator can basically instantly know that a Forger (or Witch) is evil if they don't have a good fake Lookout will. And, as I've said a million times now, doing this will decrease the power of the Jailor meta, will nerf the overpowered Lookout without having to directly change it, and will buff an underpowered role.

It's a good idea. Just, not for the Forger.

Here's my idea: Remove Forger from the damn game and replace it with a Mafia LO.
Or atleast make Forger usable. (like that's ever gonna happen)

the issue with that is that the devs don't like removing roles, they prefer reworking currently existing roles

Ok new idea

Forger rework removes it’s ability to forge wills

Instead it gains the ability of being an LO
also it’s name, icon, and summary are changed
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby Venusupreme » Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:23 pm

Hellosither wrote:
TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:
Hellosither wrote:
TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:
Venusupreme wrote:Also, LO powers for Forger aren't "off the wall" and don't "make no sense". For starters, Forger is in the Lookout's Investigator results meaning that Investigator can basically instantly know that a Forger (or Witch) is evil if they don't have a good fake Lookout will. And, as I've said a million times now, doing this will decrease the power of the Jailor meta, will nerf the overpowered Lookout without having to directly change it, and will buff an underpowered role.

It's a good idea. Just, not for the Forger.

Here's my idea: Remove Forger from the damn game and replace it with a Mafia LO.
Or atleast make Forger usable. (like that's ever gonna happen)

the issue with that is that the devs don't like removing roles, they prefer reworking currently existing roles

Ok new idea

Forger rework removes it’s ability to forge wills

Instead it gains the ability of being an LO
also it’s name, icon, and summary are changed

it's hard to tell if you're being serious or not


Better yet, let's just do what I said instead of this! :)
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby OreCreeper » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:40 pm

Venusupreme wrote:
Hellosither wrote:
TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:
Hellosither wrote:
TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:
Venusupreme wrote:Also, LO powers for Forger aren't "off the wall" and don't "make no sense". For starters, Forger is in the Lookout's Investigator results meaning that Investigator can basically instantly know that a Forger (or Witch) is evil if they don't have a good fake Lookout will. And, as I've said a million times now, doing this will decrease the power of the Jailor meta, will nerf the overpowered Lookout without having to directly change it, and will buff an underpowered role.

It's a good idea. Just, not for the Forger.

Here's my idea: Remove Forger from the damn game and replace it with a Mafia LO.
Or atleast make Forger usable. (like that's ever gonna happen)

the issue with that is that the devs don't like removing roles, they prefer reworking currently existing roles

Ok new idea

Forger rework removes it’s ability to forge wills

Instead it gains the ability of being an LO
also it’s name, icon, and summary are changed

it's hard to tell if you're being serious or not


Better yet, let's just do what I said instead of this! :)

Actually it does make sense for forger to have the watching ability also because it helps forger determine roles better in a way that doesnt overlap with consig and thus it allows forger to make more effective use of its forging ability.
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Re: Patch 3.2.5 Neutral Killing Buffs!

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:07 pm

Hellosither wrote:it's hard to tell if you're being serious or not

look my avatar in the eyes and ask yourself

I usually specify when I actually am 100% serious about an idea.
(not saying every time I don’t it’s a joke suggestion, I don’t do those. or I say when I do.)
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