[Vampires] Gamethrow or not?

[Eshkinkot]

Is it gamethrow if one of town prefer join vamp side at the end?
For exemple - only 3 ppl still alive: confirm town, confirm VH and confirm vamp. Vamp asking for lynch VH and turn another town to vamp next night. Is it GT if another town lynch VH?

[Gobln]

yea

[Eshkinkot]

yea

thank you for fast answer

[ICECLIMBERS]

Yes, as town must kill vampires and you still have the town win conditions.

[James2]

Is it gamethrow if one of town prefer join vamp side at the end?
For exemple - only 3 ppl still alive: confirm town, confirm VH and confirm vamp. Vamp asking for lynch VH and turn another town to vamp next night. Is it GT if another town lynch VH?

Game throwing is going against your win. If you did it for the purpose get of winning, it's not gamethrowing.

[LevinSnakesRise]

Is it gamethrow if one of town prefer join vamp side at the end?
For exemple - only 3 ppl still alive: confirm town, confirm VH and confirm vamp. Vamp asking for lynch VH and turn another town to vamp next night. Is it GT if another town lynch VH?

Game throwing is going against your win. If you did it for the purpose get of winning, it's not gamethrowing.

That, however, is gamingthrowing. You are Town. You are not to want to change teams. Therefor, it's gamethrowing. We've had this discussion before, and it's been explained by Brandon and the others as well.

[James2]

Is it gamethrow if one of town prefer join vamp side at the end?
For exemple - only 3 ppl still alive: confirm town, confirm VH and confirm vamp. Vamp asking for lynch VH and turn another town to vamp next night. Is it GT if another town lynch VH?

Game throwing is going against your win. If you did it for the purpose get of winning, it's not gamethrowing.

That, however, is gamingthrowing. You are Town. You are not to want to change teams. Therefor, it's gamethrowing. We've had this discussion before, and it's been explained by Brandon and the others as well.

Can you point me to where that was explained?

[shapesifter13]

Until you are a Vamp you don't have the Vamps win conditions, if you intentionally help Vamps as Town, then you are gamethrowing, regardless of if you will be turned that night, or hope to be turned in the future.

[James2]

Until you are a Vamp you don't have the Vamps win conditions, if you intentionally help Vamps as Town, then you are gamethrowing, regardless of if you will be turned that night, or hope to be turned in the future.

Is it gamethrowing for an executioner to get their target killed at night as part of a plan to get lynched during a following day (as jester)?

[LevinSnakesRise]

Until you are a Vamp you don't have the Vamps win conditions, if you intentionally help Vamps as Town, then you are gamethrowing, regardless of if you will be turned that night, or hope to be turned in the future.

Is it gamethrowing for an executioner to get their target killed at night as part of a plan to get lynched during a following day (as jester)?

Yes.

[KittenLicks]

Is it gamethrowing for the confirm town to become confused suddenly and forget which person was the vampire and which the vh?

[chitownmvp01]

Is it gamethrowing for the confirm town to become confused suddenly and forget which person was the vampire and which the vh?

I wouldn't think so because they weren't intentionally trying to lose, but I bet a lot of people would still report them for gamethrowing and take confusion as an excuse.

[LevinSnakesRise]

Is it gamethrowing for the confirm town to become confused suddenly and forget which person was the vampire and which the vh?

That's what your Last Will/Death Note (if Killing class) and other accessories on your computer, such as Notepad and Wordpad, are for.+

[KittenLicks]

Is it gamethrowing for the confirm town to become confused suddenly and forget which person was the vampire and which the vh?

That's what your Last Will/Death Note (if Killing class) and other accessories on your computer, such as Notepad and Wordpad, are for.+

Sure, a good player should have this information available to them. That's not really my point though.

My point is that, like the problems there have been previously with gamethrowing, it is impossible to prove someone did this on purpose or due to simply forgetting, and as the devs and mods have indicated time and again, they do not intend to punish bad play.

So while the official stance is that the townie is not allowed to get themselves converted, in reality all they have to do is claim they were confused and nobody can prove them wrong unless they outright say they wanted to be converted.

I doubt it's going to be easy to tell the people that are genuinely confused from the people acting confused, too. I mean, it's not like they've had a ton of practise lying and faking a persona or anything.

[Mroz4k]

Okay, so since others dont seem to understand it, here have it explained this way:

You are a Town, and you hang the Vampire Hunter. Because the Vampire promised you to change you to a Vampire, during the night.

And, he doesnt. Now, noone can vote and the game ends up in Draw. Sure, the Vampire also game-threw, since he had the option to win and didnt take it...
But, so did you. You had option to win and you did not take it. That is Game-throwing, plain and simple.

If you have a sure way of winning and you decide to not take it despite you know about it, just to get a chance at winning as a different allignment, then you are game-throwing.

Is it gamethrowing for the confirm town to become confused suddenly and forget which person was the vampire and which the vh?

If there is three people left, It is hardly possible to not know who is whom. Especially if its a VH who is against you... because at some point during the game, they would have revealed, or at least were revealed by the wills of other towns... and they are conversion-immune. So no, I dont think confusion would be a viable excuse.
Either the other Town member is moronic, its their 2nd game ever and they are still clueless, or they wanted to become a Vampire rather then Town. In games with Vampires, I see the third option as most likely one.

[KittenLicks]

Is it gamethrowing for the confirm town to become confused suddenly and forget which person was the vampire and which the vh?

If there is three people left, It is hardly possible to not know who is whom. Especially if its a VH who is against you... because at some point during the game, they would have revealed, or at least were revealed by the wills of other towns... and they are conversion-immune. So no, I dont think confusion would be a viable excuse.
Either the other Town member is moronic, its their 2nd game ever and they are still clueless, or they wanted to become a Vampire rather then Town. In games with Vampires, I see the third option as most likely one.

With respect, Mroz, the first two options are always there, and as long as nobody can prove you knew, you can permanently claim either of the first two. You don't have to be a total moron either (though that is still a valid claim). You can simple claim you were distracted for a moment and misclicked without realizing. Or maybe you were drunk at the time. Or maybe you haven't been sleeping well lately. Etc. I'm pretty sure just clicking the VH's name then apologizing profusely after it is too late is all you need for it to be virtually impossible for anyone to prove you did it on purpose. People have made worse mistakes, particularly newer players.

And yes, in that situation it is fairly simple, but think of the implications for larger situations where it is tactically advantageous to become a vampire. The higher up the skill ladder you go the more subtle the mistakes become. In a simple 3 person scenario the mistake is lynching the wrong person. Maybe at a higher level the winning "mistake" is executing someone you were pretty sure is town. At even higher levels maybe the mistake is pushing to lynch someone you have a town read on. What is classified as 'an obvious mistake' changes depending on how good the people playing are.

Also, while you are correct about having a sure way of winning and not taking being gamethrowing, this is in fact only true if people can prove that you knew, which, honestly, nobody really can. :/ And if something like this is considered gamethrowing, you have to look into other things that are 'obvious' and ask if not doing them is gamethrowing too.

[Mroz4k]

Is it gamethrowing for the confirm town to become confused suddenly and forget which person was the vampire and which the vh?

If there is three people left, It is hardly possible to not know who is whom. Especially if its a VH who is against you... because at some point during the game, they would have revealed, or at least were revealed by the wills of other towns... and they are conversion-immune. So no, I dont think confusion would be a viable excuse.
Either the other Town member is moronic, its their 2nd game ever and they are still clueless, or they wanted to become a Vampire rather then Town. In games with Vampires, I see the third option as most likely one.

With respect, Mroz, the first two options are always there, and as long as nobody can prove you knew, you can permanently claim either of the first two. You don't have to be a total moron either (though that is still a valid claim). You can simple claim you were distracted for a moment and misclicked without realizing. Or maybe you were drunk at the time. Or maybe you haven't been sleeping well lately. Etc. I'm pretty sure just clicking the VH's name then apologizing profusely after it is too late is all you need for it to be virtually impossible for anyone to prove you did it on purpose. People have made worse mistakes, particularly newer players.

And yes, in that situation it is fairly simple, but think of the implications for larger situations where it is tactically advantageous to become a vampire. The higher up the skill ladder you go the more subtle the mistakes become. In a simple 3 person scenario the mistake is lynching the wrong person. Maybe at a higher level the winning "mistake" is executing someone you were pretty sure is town. At even higher levels maybe the mistake is pushing to lynch someone you have a town read on. What is classified as 'an obvious mistake' changes depending on how good the people playing are.

Also, while you are correct about having a sure way of winning and not taking being gamethrowing, this is in fact only true if people can prove that you knew, which, honestly, nobody really can. :/ And if something like this is considered gamethrowing, you have to look into other things that are 'obvious' and ask if not doing them is gamethrowing too.

Except your arguments make no point.
You should never play this game when you are drunk or high, as this game is about being concentrated on it.
You cannot claim you failed by being momentarily distracted, again, you are supposed to be paying attention when you are playing.
you cannot claim you were sleepy - if that was the case, you should have gone to bed or go take a nap somewhere, rather then playing.

TOS requires constant concentration. If you loose by making a mistake - sure, that can happen. But in a situation like this its most likely a purposed choice rather then a mistake. The chance of this being a mistake is very little - and it would only depend on the context.

If the VH was never revealed publicly, which I find hard to believe in case of last 3 people alive - I would suspect a marginal 25% chance of error. The odds of that happening are... maybe less then 1% of all games with VH and Vampires? Likely.

So no, to expect this was a mistake is a bit foolish. In vast majority of cases this will be a choice. And as such, its game-throwing and should be reported. Then it would be up to Trial Judges and then the Staff if this was intended as game-throwing, or a mistake.

Chance of someone getting banned for this being a mistake are astronomically low. Like 0,0001°%. That chance is lower then getting randomly murdered in real life on way to work/school, if you are living in a safe European suburbs.


EDIT: I want point out more thing. You can, in fact, figure out if the person knew or not, if you have all the information present. Given how people who will be reported will be judged by Judges, who have access to the whole log and all the decisions the person knew, its very much possible to guess if they knew about it, or not.
I used to be a Mod for Minecraft server. Trust me when I say I have experience with situations where I exactly knew if the person was cheating, just by observing their decisions and actions. And that includes people who were "just mining together, randomly, not friends at all" - if you see your mining partner just going in random directions and hitting diamonds... you have to be a moron to not guess they are cheating...
It is possible to presume if the person knew or not. Heck, scumreading is kind of built on that.

[deferentsheep]

Yes, this situation sucks from a gameplay perspective. It is understandable that players using strategies like this is undesirable. However, the problem here is with conversion mechanics, not "omg gamthrewing!!".

Gamethrowing is playing to lose. Being converted to a vampire instead of killing the vampires is not playing to lose.

If you want to justify it with "hurr durr town wincon", then fine: By introducing the Vampire, the town wincon has effectively been changed to "lynch all criminals and evildoers or be converted to a vampire and win with the vampires". The wincon will always be however you can win the game regardless of what is stated on the rolecard.

[KittenLicks]

My arguments attempt to make the point that the mods cannot be certain that a person is intentionally gamethrowing, and therefore situations where a player 'gamethrows' to get converted and win are still totally open to players that will try to play to win, so long as they insist they did not do so intentionally.

You should never play this game when you are drunk or high, as this game is about being concentrated on it.
You cannot claim you failed by being momentarily distracted, again, you are supposed to be paying attention when you are playing.
you cannot claim you were sleepy - if that was the case, you should have gone to bed or go take a nap somewhere, rather then playing.

I totally agree, I want my opponents at their best. But there isn't any rule in place (that I know of, you are better versed in the rules than I, is there?) that says a player isn't allowed to play ToS while not playing at their best for any of the above reasons. Therefore not playing at your best for any of the above reasons simply falls under the heading of 'playing badly', which has been stated as not equivalent to gamethrowing many times, as I am sure you are aware.

Your statistics... are just kinda wrong or guesswork, sorry. If the VH is not revealed for some reason then it is a basic lylo where the Vampire and VH both claim VH and the confirmed town has a 50% (don't really understand your 25%, can you explain?) chance of choosing correctly. I think you'll agree it's absurd to accuse the confirmed town of gamethrowing if they choose the wrong person to lynch in that situation. You could maybe argue it is gamethrowing if the confirmed town doesn't vote for anyone, but then you have to call any lylo where one person didn't vote gamethrowing as well, so I don't think the mods will do that.

Anyway, the above situation is totally irrelevant to the argument, seeing as the OP specified that the Vampire and VH were known. I have no idea where you got the statistic of less than 1% of games with Vampires and VH's ending with the VH unconfirmed. I can't say it's wrong (though I would estimate at much more than that) but it's just kinda pulled out of nowhere. And that 0,0001°% getting banned for it also doesn't match up with the first statistic. Where are you getting these from? o.O

I don't know the exact percentage of people that will in the future intentionally be converted vs accidentally be converted, but I think it is safe to say that the amount that is plausible is high enough that the mods will pause when considering it. How convinced they are by each individual person's attempt to fake ignorance depends on both the person and the mod. From the approach the mods and admins have taken so far, I think that they will lean towards the side of people claiming ignorance, simply because it is much safer than banning someone that may or may not be gamethrowing on purpose.

Also, please, take note of my argument about this form of 'gamethrowing' at higher skill levels from my previous post.

EDIT: Deferentsheep, I think the mods/admins have basically specified that the town wincon is what is written on the town rolecard, so you can't really get away with redefining it.

(Referring to:

By introducing the Vampire, the town wincon has effectively been changed to "lynch all criminals and evildoers or be converted to a vampire and win with the vampires".

)

[deferentsheep]

In that case, it is utterly ridiculous to allow someone to "win" without completing their wincon. Winning cannot constitute anything other than fulfilling one's wincon.

The problem here is with alignment conversion mechanics.

[James2]

Gamethrowing is playing to lose. Being converted to a vampire instead of killing the vampires is not playing to lose.

Exactly. Declaring an alignment conversion as game throwing when it helps you win is a basic redefinition of "gamethrowing". If they don't want people to win via X means, then they shouldn't make it possible to win via X means.

[KittenLicks]

Basically, yes, I'm of that opinion also. I think introducing a role conversion mechanic has created way more problems than it was worth.