Petition against the new Framer Buff (IMPORTANT)

[BasicFourLife]

Bad.

If you want a better explanation, I could give one but I do not think one is necessary as of right now.

How hard is it for the Developers to make a single good change to the game, I am talking about these:

• Disguiser Rework - Replaced a bad role with another bad role.
• Arsonist Overhaul #1 - Made Arso worse in terms of balance.
• Jester Rework - Made Jester worse in terms of balance.
• Arsonist Overhaul #2 - The best change out of all the changes in this list but it was a neutral change in terms of balance.

And now, the Framer buff.

If you do not know what I am talking about, then there is a new Developer update up from Achilles making Framer's frames permanent.

Quotes from experienced Balancers on the matter at hand

Spoiler:

The issue with Framer mechanically is that it depends on the existence of a Sheriff/s and/or Investigator/s to have utility. The more likely it is for a Sheriff/Investigator to hit a framed target, the more utility the Framer has; it logically follows that the more Sheriff/s and/or Investigator/s appear in a game, the more utility Framer has in said game. This means that the Framer's utility has a huge dependency on the existence of Sheriff/s and/or Investigator/s, to the point where their lack of existence in a game completely nullifies the Framer's utility.

This inherent issue with Framer could not easily be seen before, because even with a large amount of Sheriff/s and/or Investigator/s in a game, a Sheriff/Investigator visiting a framed target was relatively rare, and so the ability was largely situational; this is why the Framer (was) very weak. Notice how before I say "the more likely it is for a Sheriff/Investigator to hit a framed target, the more utility the Framer has"; this Framer buff does exactly this. It amplifies the Framer's utility to a HUGE extent, to the point where both Sheriff and Investigator are hard countered. With this, the inherent issues of Framer can now easily be seen; have no Sheriffs or Investigators in a game, Framer has literally zero utility. Have a large or even decent amount of Sheriff/s and/or Investigator/s in a game, the Framer's utility skyrockets to be borderline broken, or at the very least, VERY powerful. Note that all of this utility is entirely dependent on the existence of Sheriffs and Investigators; something completely outside of the control of the Framer player. In other words, uncontrollable swing. Framer has always had this uncontrollable swing, but with this buff, it is simply amplified to the nth degree.

I might get shit for this, but I'm going to be blunt. You, as in the ToS dev team, need to not blindly cater to the common complaints that people have at face value. It looks as though you've just looked at "buff framer!" and implemented the first buff you could think of with no second thought about the impact it would have in any respect other than how strong the role is. I would also suggest that you start looking into the thoughts of people who have already analysed many of these potential ideas, including this one, and have a good understanding and realisation of the impact they would have on the balance of the game as a whole. My betting is that you have not realised or seen the argument I gave above; and my betting is that, if you did see it, you would never even think about implementing this buff. And if you would seriously contemplate implementing this buff after the realisation of my above argument, that would be EXTREMELY telling.

Hi Achilles, first of all thank you so much for not only informing us of the changes you plan to make before they are implemented but also listening and brainstorming with us on the issue, it really positively effects not only the community but the Dev team and the game as a whole. I’m excited for what’s to come

Pertaining to the topic, I believe the best way to tackle Framer’s problem is to target the root of it: it’s varability in power. For example, if the Framer is in a game where Town Investigative rolls the Sheriff or Investigator it will have a greater influence on the game than if it rolls Lookout, Spy etc, where it will have none at all.

This therefore means that Framer should have an additional effect on the other roles to balance out this instability, which is why I recommend the buff that DragonClaw66 posted and which the TG uses currently.

[Chemist1422]

I do think Framer needed a buff, but not in a way that totally nerfs sheriff like this.

[BasicFourLife]

I do think Framer needed a buff, but not in a way that totally nerfs sheriff like this.

this change either makes it incredibly strong or a Goon. 100% based on RNG

[orangeandblack5]

I do think Framer needed a buff, but not in a way that totally nerfs sheriff like this.

this change either makes it incredibly strong or a Goon. 100% based on RNG

Yep pretty much

[NateNate60]

I like how there's two options for "yes" but everyone picked the first one

[StrahmDude]

You still should have given an option for now, as without it this poll is rather useless and isn't going to convince anyone.

[orangeandblack5]

I agree, this isn't particularly petition-y

Still anybody voting no is somebody I find questionable tbh lol

[JoltikIsDubby]

Let's just call the bottom option "no" and the top option "yes".

One idea for a Framer buff I've seen that I really like is making it so the person you frame also gets seen by a Spy as a mafia visit. Obviously there's problems with this. Like, it would out a Framer really easily if more than three visits show up. However, I think stuff like that can be countered just by having everyone visit and making it more confusing.

Also, idk what you're talking about, but the Arsonist buff did not make Arsonist worse, that makes no sense. Like, they literally can't die to BG now, that's not a nerf. I do get Disguiser and kinda Jester too.

[testaccount1234]

If you're going to include a poll, at least make it unbiased.

[BasicFourLife]

Let's just call the bottom option "no" and the top option "yes".

One idea for a Framer buff I've seen that I really like is making it so the person you frame also gets seen by a Spy as a mafia visit. Obviously there's problems with this. Like, it would out a Framer really easily if more than three visits show up. However, I think stuff like that can be countered just by having everyone visit and making it more confusing.

Also, idk what you're talking about, but the Arsonist buff did not make Arsonist worse, that makes no sense. Like, they literally can't die to BG now, that's not a nerf. I do get Disguiser and kinda Jester too.

I was talking about the change where they made Arso’s douses silent and frame their target. I forgot they made 2 changes to the Arso and not one. I’ll edit that now.

[BasicFourLife]

The poll is literally a petition. I find it odd that orangeandblack5 of all people is detesting this when he's done the exact same thing. There is no option for no because on a petition, you can't have a negative signature - you either sign it or you don't.

Yes, that’s the case.

[greenrabbit7]

The poll is literally a petition. I find it odd that orangeandblack5 of all people is detesting this when he's done the exact same thing. There is no option for no because on a petition, you can't have a negative signature - you either sign it or you don't.

do you see how both options are yes?

[testaccount1234]

Well it's obvious now since OP changed the title but before, the thread was implying it had a poll inside.

[Soulshade55r]

Wait how was arsonists first overhaul bad? Douse messages sucked for arso it's better without them

[orangeandblack5]

The poll is literally a petition. I find it odd that orangeandblack5 of all people is detesting this when he's done the exact same thing. There is no option for no because on a petition, you can't have a negative signature - you either sign it or you don't.

I'm not detesting it, per se

But I ran a petition after a few months of refinement and getting feedback

I didn't immediately open with one

I find that idea weird.

[Villagerlover]

Agreed.
The new framer buff didn't really target the proper roots of the problem here.
I personally think that a Framer should be able to fool all TI roles if it ever wants a slim of hope to be successful.