Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

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Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby shapesifter13 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:36 pm

Hey Everyone!

I know you guys are probably wondering what we have been up to. Things have been crazy with Kickstarter stuff, and getting patch 1.5.0 ready to go. we wanted to give y'all a small little teaser of the Investigator results rework. This is still subject to change, but we wanted to post our initial change ideas, the reasonings behind them, and get feedback from y'all on it as well. :)

Spoiler: Escort, Transporter, Consort - Your target is skilled at disrupting others. They could be an Escort, Transporter, or Consort.

Escort/Consort was a fine result and this throws Trans in a result that won't confirm them as good, but it also doesn't screw any evil roles outright.

Investigator, Consigliere, Mayor - Your target has sensitive information to reveal. They could be the Investigator, Consigliere, or Mayor.

I think the Invest Consig combo is fine. Throwing Mayor in the result makes the Mayor not be confirmed as good until they actually reveal.

Sheriff, Executioner, Werewolf - Your target is waiting for the perfect moment to strike. They could be the Sheriff, Executioner, or Werewolf.

I feel like having the WW with the Exe and Sheriff helps explain away the WW immune, and gives two claims for the WW that aren't too hard to fake. This also helps to prevent the lynch them because they are either Exe or WW because the Exe could play it really cool and end up being a Jester and get a win that way. I think it adds enough variables that you have to think before you lynch.

Vigilante, Mafioso, Veteran - Your target owns a gun. They could be the Vigilante, Mafioso, or Veteran.

Keeping this result the same is fine, the Mafioso has two roles that it can claim, but there is still pressure.

Lookout, Forger, Amnesiac - Your target sticks to the shadows. They could be the Lookout, Forger, or Amnesiac.

This result gives both the Forger and Amnesiac a claim that is hard to prove and lets them lay low. It also puts pressure on the LO now since the LO isn't confirmed as good.

Spy, Blackmailer, Jailor - Your target knows your darkest secrets. They could be the Spy, Blackmailer, or Jailor.

The Spy and Blackmailer can both read whispers so they naturally should go together, and the Jailor now has an evil role paired with it rather than being confirmed good.

Doctor, Disguiser, Serial Killer - Your target is covered in blood. They could be the Doctor, Disguiser, or Serial Killer.

This gives the Disguiser more cover, and possible an extra day if he can convince the Town of his claim. Doc and SK are fine as is.

Bodyguard, Godfather, Arsonist - Your target is not afraid to get their hands dirty. They could be the Bodyguard, Godfather, or Arsonist.

Having the BG, GF, and Arso together puts a lot of pressure on a powerful protective role claim, while also giving these roles at least one night to explain away immunity, and a claim that the Town wants to keep alive if they can.

Medium, Janitor, Retributionist - Your target works with dead bodies. They could be the Medium, Janitor, or Retributionist.

This result keeps all the roles that interact with the dead and could use that knowledge in some way all in one group. This also may take some pressure off the Janitor or at least put some pressure on the Retributionist.

Survivor, Vampire Hunter, Witch - Your target keeps to themselves. They could be a Survivor, Vampire Hunter, or Witch.

This result will be much more forgiving for Witches, and Survivors, but it also still keeps some pressure on both of them.


Framer, Vampire, Jester - Your target may not be what they seem. They could be a Framer, Vampire, or Jester.

This result has Framed targets not only show up as Framer, but also as Vampires which are roles that the Town wants to get rid of, but also the Jester(and framed targets) which makes them evaluate whether the lynch is worth it. We think this will do a lot to make people think before lynching which is good for the game overall, but also gives the Vampires a bit of an easier time, and the Framer as well.



This list is starting to look very solid. Most of the complaints about this list now seem to be fairly minor. I am just working on flavor text improvements, and then I will be shipping this over to the programmers to get it ready for Patch 1.5.0

Edit: Forgot Invest and Consig. Whoops!
Edit: Veteran, Werewolf, Bodyguard: Your target is extremely paranoid to Incredibly alert.
Edit: Swapped Vampire and Witch
Edit: Fairly large restructuring.
Edit: Updated flavor text. x2
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:42 pm

Bodyguard is too good to have no Mafia members imo. Mafioso/Bodyguard would be better, and Mafioso/Bodyguard/Vigilante would be even better if you're willing to go Werewolf/Veteran.

I'll think on this a bit. Be back soon.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby TrueGent » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:48 pm

At a glance the only change that I would possibly make would be moving BG to Mafioso/Vig and leaving Vet/WW on its own
but thats a subjective change tbh and the current results work just as well

These look fairly well balanced overall.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby RhazhBash » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:56 pm

TrueGent wrote:At a glance the only change that I would possibly make would be moving BG to Mafioso/Vig and leaving Vet/WW on its own
but thats a subjective change tbh and the current results work just as well

These look fairly well balanced overall.

WW needs the BG claim more than Mafioso IMO. These results look pretty good otherwise though.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:57 pm

But, BG needs some pressure. WW doesn't provide that at all.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby Alicitzen » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:58 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Bodyguard is too good to have no Mafia members imo.

Plus its weird to say its the bodyguard who is being paranoid.
What paranoid person would willing go out and die for someone else?
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:01 pm

Sarah Thorpe wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Bodyguard is too good to have no Mafia members imo.

Plus its weird to say its the bodyguard who is being paranoid.
What paranoid person would willing go out and die for someone else?

Ewwww

Get your lore out of here
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby Alicitzen » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:05 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:
Sarah Thorpe wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Bodyguard is too good to have no Mafia members imo.

Plus its weird to say its the bodyguard who is being paranoid.
What paranoid person would willing go out and die for someone else?

Ewwww

Get your lore out of here

Its less lore more flavour text tbh.
But its still a weird thing to see as a justification for groupings.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby TrueGent » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:08 pm

Had a closer look.
After thinking about it for a bit I probably would move BG to Vig/Mafioso, Mafioso probably needs it more than WW does overall.
Also makes BG less confirmable to Invests in most games, which is probably required.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby shapesifter13 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:09 pm

A Bodyguard is always like "WHEN IS HE GUNNA GET ATTACKED!!!!" *pulls out hair* *has breakdown*
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:11 pm

If Medium is still with Janitor, the overhaul can't be that drastic.

Hopefully they cancelled it.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby shapesifter13 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:13 pm

The Medium is still going to be mixed up a bit, but possible not as much as we originally intended. It also may be done in phases.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:15 pm

That sounds way better. Great news.

BTW, I'm only able to react right now (don't have more than a minute or two at a time to check my phone), not able to critically think. Hence why I'm talking but not throwing out anything super useful.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:22 pm

I do like Janitor/Medium/Jester for that very reason.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby Gobln » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:22 pm

boi we waited like 12 months for this wtf
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby TrueGent » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:22 pm

The only problem with Framer/Jester/Witch is in games where the RM is confirmed to not be Framer very early on, which makes them a lot safer to lynch
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby Alicitzen » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:23 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:A Bodyguard is always like "WHEN IS HE GUNNA GET ATTACKED!!!!" *pulls out hair* *has breakdown*

Thats kinda a weak connection really.
I would assume the person going out to risk their life would be more y'know professional about it.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby shapesifter13 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:28 pm

Sarah Thorpe wrote:
shapesifter13 wrote:A Bodyguard is always like "WHEN IS HE GUNNA GET ATTACKED!!!!" *pulls out hair* *has breakdown*

Thats kinda a weak connection really.
I would assume the person going out to risk their life would be more y'know professional about it.


It was exaggerated, but you see the point. :)

I know if I was protecting someone I would be a bit paranoid, but I could see a professional being more alert than paranoid.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby Alicitzen » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:31 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:but I could see a professional being more alert than paranoid.

"Your target is incredibly alert. They could be a Veteran, Werewolf, or Bodyguard."
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby shapesifter13 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:33 pm

Ya I will go ahead and change that. :)
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby Sting » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:54 pm

Some nice changes in theory

But I have to say for ranked I still feel that it will be too easy for town.

People will still lynch a Medium or a Sheriff claim to find another evil.

In fact this already happens.

It will always be a game of deduction unless you change the role list.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby shapesifter13 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:59 pm

The invest changes are mostly to stop having situations of bad match-ups. We plan on doing something to the ranked role list to help make the game a lot more balanced. We know ranked isn't in the best place right now, but these changes will help some, and the role list changes will help even more. These result changes also help in other game modes.
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby Kikigiri » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:22 pm

My first thought is that those two-role results are a bit of a waste. Giving the Investigator three roles that are definitely not mafia makes them too powerful by helping whisper games; so it'd be better to move "obvious" roles into those (because even if a Jailor is generally easy to confirm, there's still a huge difference between knowing they're Town the moment you investigate them, and having to ask or force them to reveal. With a three-Town result, I can start whispering them results immediately; if it's eg. Mafioso, Vigilante, Retributionist, then I can't)

Specifically, Jailor, Retributionist, Mayor makes the Retri auto-confirmed on investigation, which seems like a bad thing. (Retris can confirm, yes, but they have to use their ability to do so, and can be roleblocked.) I suggest moving it to one of the two-result ones, either:

Mafioso, Vigilante, Retributionist, or
Spy, Blackmailer, Retributionist.

Possibly also move the Jailor and Mayor the same way. So:

Mafioso, Vigilante, Jailor, (Your target is a killer)
Spy, Blackmailer, Mayor, (Your target is a master schemer.)
Invest, Consig, Retributionist (Your target seeks the truth.)

Or some variation on these. This way, a Jailor could still be forced to reveal by an Investigator, which I think is a good thing. It also opens up the final role as fringe claim-space for a Mafia member who can't claim their more reliable option for whatever reason.

Jester, Framer, Witch
Your target delights in the pain of others. They could be a Jester, Framer, or Witch.

We put a lot of thought into this result actually. At first glance it may seem kinda of silly that all these evil roles are paired up, but the kicker is the Framer. The Framer being able to frame others as having these results will make people very cautious we feel. The Framer and Witch are both fairly common roles in the game, and having these evil roles that you want to kill being matched up with the Jester should make players wary of hanging players. We feel that this will help give the Framer and Witch both more claim space, and even the Jester if they want to do some sly double fake outs. We feel that these results will lead to more lynchings of Jesters, and more lynchings of Framed targets which will bring down the Towns win rate.
This weakens the Framer a bit, though (because people may be reluctant to lynch people they frame, if it's an Investigator they happen to fool.) And the Framer is already really weak overall, since anyone they visit is auto-confirmed as not Mafia to the Spy, which is far more likely to happen than an Invest or Sheriff visiting your target the same night you do.

The basic way Framers work needs to change, though, so I wouldn't worry too much about this one... I'm just pointing it out. (Personally, I suggest making the Framer fool the Lookout and Spy as well; for the Lookout, make it so anyone who the Framer frames appear to visit whoever the Mafia killer attacks as an extra visitor; and for the Spy, make it so the Spy doesn't see any Mafia visits to the person the Framer visits, ruining attempts to determine the Mafia by elimination.)
Please put the Witch in Coven mode. I miss it. :-(
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby danhack » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:39 pm

This is what I would do if I had to draft a 1.5.0 balance

Spy, Blackmailer
Your target knows all of your darkest secrets. They could be a Spy or Blackmailer.

Mafia is really strong this balance so Blackmailer shouldn't see whispers

Doctor, Serial Killer, Disguiser
Your target is covered in blood. They could be a Doctor, Serial Killer, or Disguiser.

I like it no changes.

Jailor, Retributionist, Mayor, Framer
Your target is powerful member of the Town. The could be a Jailor, Retributionist, Mayor, or Framer.

You said you might want to make easily confirmed roles harder to find. This will be the twist. There's a framer in the mix who can really screw that up.

Escort, Transporter, Consort
Your target is very skilled at manipulating others. They could be an Escort, Transporter, or Consort.

Solid logic, not changes

Mafioso, Vigilante, Vampire Hunter
Your target owns a gun. They could be a Vigilante, Vampire Hunter or Mafioso.

Added a Vampire hunter to it. If the Vampire hunter wants to hide, he can be a vigilante.

Godfather, Sheriff, Executioner
Your target has a mission. They could be a Sheriff, Executioner, or the Godfather.

Huge buff to GF. Sheriff is GF usual claim now its impossible to tell the difference of who is sheriff and who is GF.

Lookout, Forger, Jester
Your target keeps a close eye on others. They could be a Lookout, Forger, or Jester.

Gives Jester more space as well as forger.

Vampire, Witch , Survivor
Your target never rests at night. They could be a Vampire, Witch, or Survivor.

Put witch with survivor, so there is still some struggle as a survivor and a way to hide as a witch.

Veteran, Werewolf, Bodyguard
Your target is incredibly alert. They could be a Veteran, Werewolf, or Bodyguard.

I like it

Medium, Janitor, Arsonist
Your target is used to dead bodies. They could be a Medium, Janitor, or Arsonist.

No changes
Consigliere, Investigator Amnesiac
Your target likes to gather information. They could be an Investigator, Consigliere, or Amnesiac.

added Amnesiac to this list cause why not lel.


With this current setup I would suggest the following.

Sheriff should ALWAYS see if a target is SK/WW. Investigator got nerf'd I'd say so Sheriff should counter act it.
Blackmailer doesn't get to see whispers. Mafia is strong enough.
Mayor shouldn't be able to get whispers when he reveals.


I will edit this depending on feedback on the main post and mine
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Re: Patch 1.5.0 Invest Result Changes

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:08 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:Jailor, Retributionist, Mayor
Your target is powerful member of the Town. The could be a Jailor, Retributionist, or Mayor.

Confirmed???
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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