What features does the community want?

[HereThereEverywhere]

Not being able to read mafia chat has made spy a pointless role. They really serve no other purpose than "mafia has visited a,b, and c, while coven has visited d." At least before the nerfs, spy was usable and an actual threat to the mafia, now it's a joke and a nuisance to the town.

The current Spy is temporary. Spy wasn't just a threat before, the role literally made the Mafchat useless most of the time. It's being reworked into something that wont make intended mechanics useless.

[mdb1023]

Not being able to read mafia chat has made spy a pointless role. They really serve no other purpose than "mafia has visited a,b, and c, while coven has visited d." At least before the nerfs, spy was usable and an actual threat to the mafia, now it's a joke and a nuisance to the town.

the very fact that they can see who mafia and coven visits goes against the meaning of "pointless".

[Kikigiri]

I mentioned this in another thread, but can we please get some Framer buffs? The Framer is extremely unfun to play at the moment due to its low power-level, and if there's no Investigator or Sheriff (which is even more likely in Coven mode), it's completely useless.

1. Have it trick Lookouts / Trackers by making it look like the target visited the Mafioso / GF's target that night, if they're looking. (The Framer's victim appears as an additional visitor; it doesn't hide the Mafia killer, but it provides another potential target to cloud the water.)

2. Have it fool Spies by hiding the Framer and any other Mafia who visit their target from the Spy's visit report that night (excluding the Mafia killer and the Janitor, whose visits are obvious and would only serve to confirm the presence of a framer if concealed.) This one might be obsolete if spies are gonna change entirely.

3. Have it fool Psychics by having anyone they frame count as evil for Psychic purposes (does this already work? It's unclear.)

4. Make it so if someone is Framed, and they die that night without Mafia involvement or get lynched the next day, their role shows as Framer in the death notice and graveyard (though their will is revealed.) This both allows Framers to aggressively get people lynched (to "confirm" as a Sheriff) and to frame people with their own wills by writing a fake will that makes them look like a Townie (so any Sheriff who goes after them and gets them lynched will look like a Framer pulling the previous trick), while also throwing a bit of confusion into the role results. The fact that it doesn't hide wills and doesn't work if the Mafia kills their target at night would help keep it distinct from Janitors. This one is particularly important because it gives Framers a use that is not contingent on the presence / absence of other roles, so if one thing is going to be done, I would prefer this one (although I think all these changes would be good.)

[NettoTakashi]

I agree that Framer needs some serious buffs, but I think that Psychic counter might be a bit much. Psychic can already turn out quite weak depending on RNG (being told the revealed Mayor might be good TWICE in one game suuuucks), having framed people turn up in odd-night Psychic results alongside (potentially) two good people could lead Town on not one, but as many as THREE mis-lynches. Once all three are finally discovered to be good, if they don't lynch the Psychic for being a fake, THEN they might finally realize there's a Framer in play, and by then it's too late.

I think an increased likelihood of being among the Psychic's "extra baggage" on odd nights, and a decreased likelihood on even nights, would be enough. If the same person shows up N1 and N3 in the Psychic's visions, that casts enough suspicion on them already, I would say.

Plus, this would make Psychic even easier to fake than it already is. All three of your "evil" targets for N1 turned out to be good? No problem, if anyone asks, just say one of them must have been framed! If there's any Mafia in game at all, it's possible, and hard to prove they weren't!

[RHCube]

Psychic should be reworked. It's overpowered, no roles should be able to confirm evil roles like the psychic. It should just be reworked into the scientist role(investigate one person each night, you will be notified if they are of the same faction as the last player you visit)

Also, framer and disguiser should be combined into one role: imposter
-Select a player to disguise as and frame
-Framing them will now make their role be permanently disguised as your current role(even when they die)
-You will learn their role
-This ability has 3 uses
-People who have been framed/disguised will have their original role revealed at the end of the game(to prevent false gamethrowing reports)
-At the beginning of each night, you will receive the message "You are currently disguised as [role]. You may frame your target as [role]."
-Gameplay Example:
The imposter selects the Sheriff N1. The imposter is disguised as a sheriff and the Sheriff will be disguised as the imposter. The imposter then selects the Bodyguard N2. The BG is now disguised as a sheriff and the imposter is disguised as the bodyguard
-In order for this role to be added, a few changes would have to be made to how disguises work:
-Retributionists can now revive disguisers
If a town killing role kills a player disguised as a town role, then it will be as if they were actually a town role(ex: If a vig kills an imposter disguised as a sheriff, then they will die the next night. If a jailor executes the imposter, they will lose all executions)

[NettoTakashi]

I can't see the Scientist you describe as anything but a weaker Sheriff. As a good rule of thumb, if you can accurately describe a role as "like X but weaker/stronger", it's not a good role.

I could see combining the current Framer and Disguiser roles into one. That could work rather nicely. But your Imposter adds Consig to that as well, and making OTHER PEOPLE show up as roles that aren't their own when killed is just... no, that would be way too confusing. And who waits for the end of the game before filing reports?

And unrelated to RHCube's post, something I've been thinking for a while now: GA should be told their target's faction. It's hard enough for GA to keep scum alive without having to figure out on their own that there target IS scum. If you're a GA with Coven as your target, you don't want to be lynching other Coven... but at present, the only way to know your target is Coven is to get the information either directly from them (and who would openly admit to being Coven?) or through investigative roles figuring it out and telling the entire town.

[scythesensei]

Think we need to either limit arso to 1 or remove one of its buffs cause as it is right now it can only be found by invest or consig but the arso can mess their results making them even harder to find for being able to see who get doused this opens 4 more roles to find the role jailor, consort and escort due to role blocking and lookout and this would also make lookout more useful
for arsos ability to alter investigative results still keeps it countered by invest and consig only which is somewhat fair as most games have one of the two
and for limiting arso to 1 would keep it fair as the roles way too powerful as is to be able to be so hidden and just keep safe from other arsos.

[RHCube]

Here's a few more changes:
-Make transporter neutral benign and have it replace survivor
-Remove or completely rework retributionist. It confirms at least 2 towns, makes medium impossible to fakeclaim,
sets evils back an entire day, and is boring
-Remove or completely rework vampire hunter for the same reason why spy is being reworked.
-Arsonist : Remove the douse frames, but make it burn(clean) it's targets. If this is OP, then make it so arso only burns the will
-Rework pirate:
-Allow pirate to talk with its target. They would be called pirate in the chat
-Give pirate a basic defense
-Make pirate's roleblock work like jailor's
-Each of pirate's weapons should have a different effect. The scimitar would clean your target, rapier would make your attack unstoppable, and the pistol would make your attack astral
-Each defense should defend against an attack instead of being vulnerable to an attack. Sidestep would protect against the rapier, chainmail would protect against the pistol, and backpedal would protect against the scimitar

I can't see the Scientist you describe as anything but a weaker Sheriff. As a good rule of thumb, if you can accurately describe a role as "like X but weaker/stronger", it's not a good role.

I could see combining the current Framer and Disguiser roles into one. That could work rather nicely. But your Imposter adds Consig to that as well, and making OTHER PEOPLE show up as roles that aren't their own when killed is just... no, that would be way too confusing. And who waits for the end of the game before filing reports?

And unrelated to RHCube's post, something I've been thinking for a while now: GA should be told their target's faction. It's hard enough for GA to keep scum alive without having to figure out on their own that there target IS scum. If you're a GA with Coven as your target, you don't want to be lynching other Coven... but at present, the only way to know your target is Coven is to get the information either directly from them (and who would openly admit to being Coven?) or through investigative roles figuring it out and telling the entire town.

This could work as a sheriff rework instead. Though psychic does need a rework since it can confirm both good and evil players, is too complicated, relies too much on RNG, and is boring.

I made it only 3 uses to prevent it from being a better consig. And the point of mafia deception is to confuse players.

Think we need to either limit arso to 1 or remove one of its buffs cause as it is right now it can only be found by invest or consig but the arso can mess their results making them even harder to find for being able to see who get doused this opens 4 more roles to find the role jailor, consort and escort due to role blocking and lookout and this would also make lookout more useful
for arsos ability to alter investigative results still keeps it countered by invest and consig only which is somewhat fair as most games have one of the two
and for limiting arso to 1 would keep it fair as the roles way too powerful as is to be able to be so hidden and just keep safe from other arsos.

Arsonist doesn't need a nerf, it's still the weakest neutral killing. It needs another buff if anything. Though I agree that the douse frames should be removed since roles shouldn't have abilities that are designed to counter a specific role/faction, but only if it's replaced with another ability.

[DrZero11]

What I think, and I have mentioned this in other threads, is that the pirate should be given basic defence and a way to make the randomness of his role less random and a bit more tactical.
Giving the pirate basic defence would mean it would last longer, and with a role that is purely luck, that would help. I cannot tell you how annoying it is to win your second duel of the game, but not actually plunder the target because of a crusader. Not only would you die, but you wouldn't even win as your target would of been protected and saved from your duel. Basic defence would mean unfair situations like this wouldn't happen. It isn't really that fair for you to win a duel, but not only gain nothing from it, but also die because of a crusader. Doctor heals are not as bad as they don't kill you, but crusaders are the banes of pirates I have noticed.
Again, I have mentioned this before also, but what if certain roles of certain sub groups (a mix of roles from all factions, a bit like a investigators result), couldn't choose a certain defence. Of course, the pirate wouldn't be told what this is to prevent the pirate becoming an investigator. This would mean that if the pirate could possibly figure out a persons role, such as someone claiming sheriff and sheriff's could not choose the chainmail (again this is just a suggestion), the pirate could duel the player with the knowledge that the target couldn't choose chainmail. Not only would this mean that the duels are a bit easier to win with a role that is purely luck based (I've been in games where I have duelled people every night I could, and not won once, other games I have won some, but a doctor/protector has stopped me and I lose because of it), it would add a bit of taticality to the role as it would make pirates who could figure out peoples roles, from the chat and wills, have a bit of an advantage over the luck of its role.

[HereThereEverywhere]

Here's a few more changes:
-Make transporter neutral benign and have it replace survivor
-Remove or completely rework retributionist. It confirms at least 2 towns, makes medium impossible to fakeclaim,
sets evils back an entire day, and is boring
-Remove or completely rework vampire hunter for the same reason why spy is being reworked.
-Arsonist : Remove the douse frames, but make it burn(clean) it's targets. If this is OP, then make it so arso only burns the will
-Rework pirate:
-Allow pirate to talk with its target. They would be called pirate in the chat
-Give pirate a basic defense
-Make pirate's roleblock work like jailor's
-Each of pirate's weapons should have a different effect. The scimitar would clean your target, rapier would make your attack unstoppable, and the pistol would make your attack astral
-Each defense should defend against an attack instead of being vulnerable to an attack. Sidestep would protect against the rapier, chainmail would protect against the pistol, and backpedal would protect against the scimitar

1) Trans would make for a trash NB. They should be able to help anyone, whereas an NB Trans would be encouraged to randomly transport themselves with those they think aren't going to die. If it were going to be a Neutral role, NC would be the place, because making it Neutral means taking skill out of the role and encouraging random transporting. The only change that should happen is making transports silent, which would allow for a great scumclaim. Maybe removing self-transports as well, but that's only a maybe.
2) Retri probably does need some work, but you can't say it's boring and that's why it needs to change. Boring is subjective, I don't think Retri is boring.
3) Cleaning would definitely be too strong, maybe will burning could work.
4) The only thing that could reliably come from Pirate talking to their target is gamethrowing. Everyone is different, that means some people could fall for a Pirate's mind games, while others wouldn't, which means it's effectively random, depending on who you target. So definitely no for Pirate talking to their target.
5) Basic defense is something I could support.
6) Roleblocking everyone should definitely happen as well. That's all you meant, right? Because Jailor's roleblock can be seen as protection as well, I assume you don't mean that aspect?
7) I don't think Pirate needs any of these buffs, basic defense and maybe Zero's suggestion are enough, your suggestion doesn't make the role any more skillful.
8) This still doesn't make the role more skillful, it makes the randomness lean toward the Pirate rather than the target, but it doesn't encourage skill. I think Zero's suggestion would be better, because in a straight random duel Pirate is at a disadvantage, but if it can work out roles and claims it can gain the upper hand.

[RHCube]

Here's a few more changes:
-Make transporter neutral benign and have it replace survivor
-Remove or completely rework retributionist. It confirms at least 2 towns, makes medium impossible to fakeclaim,
sets evils back an entire day, and is boring
-Remove or completely rework vampire hunter for the same reason why spy is being reworked.
-Arsonist : Remove the douse frames, but make it burn(clean) it's targets. If this is OP, then make it so arso only burns the will
-Rework pirate:
-Allow pirate to talk with its target. They would be called pirate in the chat
-Give pirate a basic defense
-Make pirate's roleblock work like jailor's
-Each of pirate's weapons should have a different effect. The scimitar would clean your target, rapier would make your attack unstoppable, and the pistol would make your attack astral
-Each defense should defend against an attack instead of being vulnerable to an attack. Sidestep would protect against the rapier, chainmail would protect against the pistol, and backpedal would protect against the scimitar

1) Trans would make for a trash NB. They should be able to help anyone, whereas an NB Trans would be encouraged to randomly transport themselves with those they think aren't going to die. If it were going to be a Neutral role, NC would be the place, because making it Neutral means taking skill out of the role and encouraging random transporting. The only change that should happen is making transports silent, which would allow for a great scumclaim. Maybe removing self-transports as well, but that's only a maybe.
2) Retri probably does need some work, but you can't say it's boring and that's why it needs to change. Boring is subjective, I don't think Retri is boring.
3) Cleaning would definitely be too strong, maybe will burning could work.
4) The only thing that could reliably come from Pirate talking to their target is gamethrowing. Everyone is different, that means some people could fall for a Pirate's mind games, while others wouldn't, which means it's effectively random, depending on who you target. So definitely no for Pirate talking to their target.
5) Basic defense is something I could support.
6) Roleblocking everyone should definitely happen as well. That's all you meant, right? Because Jailor's roleblock can be seen as protection as well, I assume you don't mean that aspect?
7) I don't think Pirate needs any of these buffs, basic defense and maybe Zero's suggestion are enough, your suggestion doesn't make the role any more skillful.
8) This still doesn't make the role more skillful, it makes the randomness lean toward the Pirate rather than the target, but it doesn't encourage skill. I think Zero's suggestion would be better, because in a straight random duel Pirate is at a disadvantage, but if it can work out roles and claims it can gain the upper hand.

1. Neutral chaos could work, but then it's win con would have to change. And self-transports are fine
3. Yeah will burning would be better.
4. How would it allow gamethrowing, the pirate would be able to make their target chose the defense that they want them to.
6. Yeah that's what I meant.
7. Why? It removes the luck aspects of pirate.
8. It does remove the randomness though. And it does add a bit of skill(TI would likely defend against the clean while killing roles would likely defend against the rapier)

[HereThereEverywhere]

1) Transporter right now requires skill to be useful. As Neutral Chaos it encourages randomly transporting without thought to screw up Town. That's not a balanced or skillful approach, that's just screwing around. Self transports allow the Transporter to serve as a sort of self-protection role, while not even TP can do this more than once.
4) You have no control over what those people pick. You can try to make them, but that depends on the person, which still keeps it effectively random. It's a lot easier for the target to just say "I'm X role, I hate it, I'm picking Chainmail" than it would be for Pirate to trick them.
7&8) You think the TI would protect against cleaning. That's what you think, you don't know. The target could know that you think that, and thus defend against something else, it's not skill, it's the wine in front of me approach. They could protect against the clean, it's clearly the better option. But they know that you that which means they might pick something else because you obviously wont go for the clean because they're protecting against it, that'd be silly. But if you know that they might not defend against the clean, then you can go for the clean. But if they know that, they might defend against the clean. It depends on the person. It is not skill, it is luck. It doesn't remove the randomness of the role at all.

[RHCube]

1) Transporter right now requires skill to be useful. As Neutral Chaos it encourages randomly transporting without thought to screw up Town. That's not a balanced or skillful approach, that's just screwing around. Self transports allow the Transporter to serve as a sort of self-protection role, while not even TP can do this more than once.
4) You have no control over what those people pick. You can try to make them, but that depends on the person, which still keeps it effectively random. It's a lot easier for the target to just say "I'm X role, I hate it, I'm picking Chainmail" than it would be for Pirate to trick them.
7&8) You think the TI would protect against cleaning. That's what you think, you don't know. The target could know that you think that, and thus defend against something else, it's not skill, it's the wine in front of me approach. They could protect against the clean, it's clearly the better option. But they know that you that which means they might pick something else because you obviously wont go for the clean because they're protecting against it, that'd be silly. But if you know that they might not defend against the clean, then you can go for the clean. But if they know that, they might defend against the clean. It depends on the person. It is not skill, it is luck. It doesn't remove the randomness of the role at all.

1.) Alright.
4.)Alright
7&8)But it would remove most of the randomness. It would also make it much easier for the pirate to win

[HereThereEverywhere]

It really wouldn't. You think it would, but you don't know how your opponent thinks, therefore you don't know what they'll do. It would make sense for certain people to go with the obvious choice, but not all people are like that. It doesn't remove randomness like Zero's suggestion does.

[Insonnolito]

No offense, but I think you should add more of the community's actually good roles (Because most of them are bad) and less of your own, because 1) It would make the owner really happy and 2) No offense, but some of the roles you come up with aren't very good, even though I haven't bought Coven, I've heard of some of the roles, and they don't sound too great, besides maybe Tracker, which was suggested by many community members.

[RHCube]

It really wouldn't. You think it would, but you don't know how your opponent thinks, therefore you don't know what they'll do. It would make sense for certain people to go with the obvious choice, but not all people are like that. It doesn't remove randomness like Zero's suggestion does.

The current pirate has a 33% chance of winning. My pirate has a 66% chance of winning. And why can't both of them be added?

[FlameVapour]

*Being Jailed means all night actions targetted towards you fail.*
*Now, Arsonist can ignite a jailed target*
Arsonists should NOT BE ABLE TO IGNITE A JAILED TARGET. It makes no sense game-wise and lore-wise.

*In jail*
Jailor: role?
Doctor: Doctor
Jailor: ok
*Doctor spontaneously combusts*

[JazzMusicStops]

*Being Jailed means all night actions targetted towards you fail.*
*Now, Arsonist can ignite a jailed target*
Arsonists should NOT BE ABLE TO IGNITE A JAILED TARGET. It makes no sense game-wise and lore-wise.

*In jail*
Jailor: role?
Doctor: Doctor
Jailor: ok
*Doctor spontaneously combusts*

they probably leave a trail of gas

[HereThereEverywhere]

It really wouldn't. You think it would, but you don't know how your opponent thinks, therefore you don't know what they'll do. It would make sense for certain people to go with the obvious choice, but not all people are like that. It doesn't remove randomness like Zero's suggestion does.

The current pirate has a 33% chance of winning. My pirate has a 66% chance of winning. And why can't both of them be added?

Because that would make it OP. Making some targets unable to choose a certain defense, along with making the defenses have special actions would be unfair. Also making it so that the target has to choose the correct defense or die makes Pirate too easy. Not to mention both suggestions would just make it far stronger than it needs to be. It doesn't need to clean, or pierce immunity, it doesn't need any of that. None of those abilities help it win, except for piercing immunity. Except that makes it unfair to NKs, who have immunity so that they're not prey to other killers at night.

[RHCube]

It really wouldn't. You think it would, but you don't know how your opponent thinks, therefore you don't know what they'll do. It would make sense for certain people to go with the obvious choice, but not all people are like that. It doesn't remove randomness like Zero's suggestion does.

The current pirate has a 33% chance of winning. My pirate has a 66% chance of winning. And why can't both of them be added?

Because that would make it OP. Making some targets unable to choose a certain defense, along with making the defenses have special actions would be unfair. Also making it so that the target has to choose the correct defense or die makes Pirate too easy. Not to mention both suggestions would just make it far stronger than it needs to be. It doesn't need to clean, or pierce immunity, it doesn't need any of that. None of those abilities help it win, except for piercing immunity. Except that makes it unfair to NKs, who have immunity so that they're not prey to other killers at night.

Still, with Zero's suggestion, there will probably be roles who can use all of the defenses. The other abilities would help it win. Cleaning would prevent investigative roles and the astral attack would help against lookouts/werewolves.

[HereThereEverywhere]

Yes, roles who can use all of the defenses, to keep Pirate balanced. Making it stronger makes it unbalanced.

[CocoBunny313]

*Being Jailed means all night actions targetted towards you fail.*
*Now, Arsonist can ignite a jailed target*
Arsonists should NOT BE ABLE TO IGNITE A JAILED TARGET. It makes no sense game-wise and lore-wise.

*In jail*
Jailor: role?
Doctor: Doctor
Jailor: ok
*Doctor spontaneously combusts*

That made me laugh, ahaha

[Blackwolfe99]

*Being Jailed means all night actions targetted towards you fail.*
*Now, Arsonist can ignite a jailed target*
Arsonists should NOT BE ABLE TO IGNITE A JAILED TARGET. It makes no sense game-wise and lore-wise.

*In jail*
Jailor: role?
Doctor: Doctor
Jailor: ok
*Doctor spontaneously combusts*

they probably leave a trail of gas

Probably, also considering how many people can be ignited at once, I 'd say it's probably not direct.

[lizardblizzard]

The ability to report players in a lobby. Lots of people come into lobbies and spam the chat, then leave and come back keeping the game from starting. People will sign in on multiple accounts to do this, and it's a pain when you can't report them until the game starts... because it will never start.

[Jerme]

Just some things that would be nice to be considered to make the game more interesting.
- Spy needs a fix of some sort as it's has become the most useless invest town role in my opinion (a fix could be giving the spy the ability once per game to listen in on mafia/coven/vampire chat one night or read whispers for a day)
- Let transporter transport jester guilt to another target
- give the hypnotist more texted speech options and/or maybe a way to write your own personalised threat to the victim/or even give the person a lead on another evil player.

I've read your points and would like to adress the one I've quote fromn you:
1. Spy has already a rework ongoing, which appears soon to be done (will hit PTR first)
2. Transporter was once able to do that, but got removed, thus is is unlikely to do so.
3. The Hypnotist is only able to emulate general feedback and should stay like that, as otherwise the presence of one gets known too easily as well as there is not really a reason for the Hypnotist to do such things.