What do you guys think about afterlife? Religion VS Science

[TheDebil]

you either start over or stop completely.

[MarvelsTheFixer]

As I understand it, God created Adam and Eve with free will with the expectation that they would act accordingly with his rules and everything he wanted for them. Then he got upset when this was not the case. Because Adam and Eve ate the Tree of Knowledge that God said to not eat to. But, he knew full well, the entire time, that this was a possibility. So, what it boils down to is that he was unable to control them or they were not what he hoped they would be.

[Arckas]

Of course people die, people die all the time. Whatever the circumstance from being killed in a roll over collision or dying in bed from our loved ones, death is of course a real thing. We see death all the time and could even witness someone experiencing it. If only we could ask them what it's like to die... we might be able to.

There are people who have come back from clinical death. A portion of those people have reported having an experience. Scientifically it could be explained hallucinations caused by anoxia, drugs, and brain damage. Spiritually could also be explained through many ways.



When do we eventually cross that threshold into the afterlife?

Answer: Never

Time is endless and can always be divided. As we start to pass, our brain and neurological functions begin to decrease- thus our perception of time also decreases. If we take Zeno's Paradox of Ditchotomy and apply it to time, as we are experiencing death we will never truly die. Instead, we will remain trapped in a seemingly suspended animation as we will lose brain function to (forget) our friends, family, our personality, our memories, our capacity to have a consciousness- trapped in infinity and never reaching that threshold of our death.


To answer the question: We never die. We live forever in a timeless and state.


:P

[Arckas]

If I had to give an example of what it feels like, it would be similar to slowly going under until you fall unconscious after being anesthetized... except you never woke up afterwards.

[Manhax]

What does science have to do with this? Do you have specific examples?

I lack theological reasons to believe an afterlife exists, and since I have no indication that it exists or could possibly exist I feel justified in rejecting it.

[itaicool]

I think you have a soul in your body, and when you die your soul travels into a new baby body, then you start a new life. Without any memory of your past life.

[Cynlydia]

I don't claim for my beliefs to be supported by strong evidence or justifiable reasoning of any kind, but I'd like to believe that nothing happens after death. No afterlife, no soul, no continuation. Your consciousness is gone forever.

The thing is, were we even alive in the first place? When it comes down to it, what makes us alive? We can perform random functions that contribute to the scientific definition of life, but a lot of those things apply to our cells, not us (and yet some of them don't, so you can't definitively state that our cells are alive either). We're just vague labels for a collection of particles. So how can anything happen after death if you were never truly alive?

Quite a scary thought, but also a relief.

(That is, if I'm right in the first place. Nothing else makes sense to me, but then again, that's just me.)

[DestroyerR225]

So discussion, much debate.

[MarvelsTheFixer]

I don't claim for my beliefs to be supported by strong evidence or justifiable reasoning of any kind, but I'd like to believe that nothing happens after death. No afterlife, no soul, no continuation. Your consciousness is gone forever.

Why would you like to believe this?

It's so grim. It provides no hope. If we all thought this were the case what would motivate us to do anything, since no matter what a certain point we will cease to exist and our mark on this world will be nonexistent like we never existed at all?

[activeFile]

If God punished Adam and Steve?... Lilith?... Eve? (The bible is not clear on who was his 'first' 'wife') for gaining knowledge, god should nuke us to oblivion. Just for the fact that we know how to build comupters. So much sin, lol.

Just a quick answer: If we are dead we are dead. The time after you are dead will be the same as the time before you were born. You just won't exist anymore. And it does not matter that you feel sad about it or are afraid. You just stop to exist. Your wishful thinking is not going to make Nirvana/Heaven/Olymp/Valhalla/44343535 other 'heavens' true, you know. Facts don't care about your feelings.

Accept it, get over it, stop acting like a moron on behalf of your believes, stop killing infidels, apostates and gays, start valueing life, live your life and treat others with human dignity, because you and all the others only have one time to live.

[activeFile]

I don't claim for my beliefs to be supported by strong evidence or justifiable reasoning of any kind, but I'd like to believe that nothing happens after death. No afterlife, no soul, no continuation. Your consciousness is gone forever.

Why would you like to believe this?

It's so grim. It provides no hope. If we all thought this were the case what would motivate us to do anything, since no matter what a certain point we will cease to exist and our mark on this world will be nonexistent like we never existed at all?

Is it? No hope? So if you don't have some kind of afterlife you would have no motivation? I hope you won't start talking about running around and raping people, lol. You are grim.

Atheist have nothing to die for and everything to live for. You seem like you have nothing to live for and everything to die for, cause you think that having just one life is grim and you have no motivation for living. No offense, but that's the same attitude people have when they blow up abortion doctors or 'infidels'. You should seriously think about your attitude towards life, cause I don't want to get harmed by you someday. And again: Your wishful thinking does not make things true. Get over it and get a live outside of dogma and religion. It's so much more beautiful to be free from it.

[James2]

It must be sad to go around being so consumed by anger.

[MarvelsTheFixer]

Is it? No hope? So if you don't have some kind of afterlife you would have no motivation? I hope you won't start talking about running around and raping people, lol. You are grim.

Atheist have nothing to die for and everything to live for. You seem like you have nothing to live for and everything to die for, cause you think that having just one life is grim and you have no motivation for living. No offense, but that's the same attitude people have when they blow up abortion doctors or 'infidels'. You should seriously think about your attitude towards life, cause I don't want to get harmed by you someday. And again: Your wishful thinking does not make things true. Get over it and get a live outside of dogma and religion. It's so much more beautiful to be free from it.

Yes. You get about 100 years on Earth, if after all of that - nothing happens, what hope is there? Why would we not be spending every waking moment trying to find immortality? The saying "life is short" is not just something people put on T-Shirts. It takes people a long time to figure out just who they are, what motivation would they have if after all that work they put in people probably won't remember them and they get nothing for it? Raping people would be counter-intuitive because then you would be spending the rest of the guaranteed life you do have rotting away in prison. How in the world am I grim?

Everyone has everything to live for. There is no motivation for living beyond reaching the next point in your life, having an endpoint means that no matter what you do you cannot escape the reality that when you are gone you don't get to enjoy the fruits of your labor. No, those are political statements that range from being outright murder to being angry at people who murder. Why would murder be such a big deal if there was no afterlife? Maybe you should think about your attitude towards life because you get really grim at the drop of a hat. You don't have any proof supporting your case either. Religion is for worthless peons, faith is the only reason anyone has to get up in the morning. You don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about and appear to be wishing for death to come.

[deathofrats0808]

Is it? No hope? So if you don't have some kind of afterlife you would have no motivation? I hope you won't start talking about running around and raping people, lol. You are grim.

Atheist have nothing to die for and everything to live for. You seem like you have nothing to live for and everything to die for, cause you think that having just one life is grim and you have no motivation for living. No offense, but that's the same attitude people have when they blow up abortion doctors or 'infidels'. You should seriously think about your attitude towards life, cause I don't want to get harmed by you someday. And again: Your wishful thinking does not make things true. Get over it and get a live outside of dogma and religion. It's so much more beautiful to be free from it.

Yes. You get about 100 years on Earth, if after all of that - nothing happens, what hope is there? Why would we not be spending every waking moment trying to find immortality? The saying "life is short" is not just something people put on T-Shirts. It takes people a long time to figure out just who they are, what motivation would they have if after all that work they put in people probably won't remember them and they get nothing for it? Raping people would be counter-intuitive because then you would be spending the rest of the guaranteed life you do have rotting away in prison. How in the world am I grim?

Everyone has everything to live for. There is no motivation for living beyond reaching the next point in your life, having an endpoint means that no matter what you do you cannot escape the reality that when you are gone you don't get to enjoy the fruits of your labor. No, those are political statements that range from being outright murder to being angry at people who murder. Why would murder be such a big deal if there was no afterlife? Maybe you should think about your attitude towards life because you get really grim at the drop of a hat. You don't have any proof supporting your case either. Religion is for worthless peons, faith is the only reason anyone has to get up in the morning. You don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about and appear to be wishing for death to come.

So...if there's no afterlife there's no hope? I can't possibly agree with that. The very nature of death grants us purpose. The knowledge that every day might be your last drives humanity into doing. Every day may be your last, so live your life to the fullest. Carpe diem.

Now, none of that means that there isn't an afterlife, but if all you live for is to eke out a meager existence and hope that an afterlife exists and that you'll get in it, then you aren't really living, merely waiting for death. Or, to put it another way, why are you motivated by fame? Do things for enjoyment, not remembrance. Don't become a coder to be like Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates, become a coder because you enjoy it. Life isn't about what others think of you, but whether you lived a fulfilling and good life.

[MarvelsTheFixer]

Essentially, yeah that is what I am arguing. That's fine. Death actually provides us the opposite of purpose because if everyone is headed to the same place anyway, what would be the point of trying to be different or unique? The knowledge that every day might be your last is actually something that some people are hoping for, so it does not necessarily mean that anyone is driven by it. "Living your life to the fullest" means something different to everyone. How do you live your life to the fullest if you don't know what the point of it all is?

No, actually it's the opposite. You would only be waiting for death if you thought there wasn't an afterlife. Who said anything about fame? So you lived your life and enjoyed yourself, that's great, but what do you get out of it on your death bed? If you were going to become a coder, you are probably doing it because you are inspired by those guys, and would not even be in it if it wasn't for their work. Again, nobody said anything about what others think of you. You have to think of the future. Living each day like it might be your last is another grim thought, because it assumes you have no future and many of ours day on this Earth are spent bettering ourselves for the future.

[deathofrats0808]

But if when we did we go to a perfect place, what's the point of living in an imperfect one to begin with. Sure, living your life might mean something different to everybody, I'm aware of that, but even if there is no afterlife, why does it matter that we all end up gone? And I hate to point this out, but even if there is an afterlife, you don't know for certain which one it is, and to the best of my knowledge 90% of them say that only whether you do good or bad in life matters, bettering yourself doesn't count for a thing. And you mentioned fame. All that people won't remember the dead stuff. Also, you seems to argue that the only reason to do good, and not bad is that we might be rewarded for it after we die,instead of doing it because it's the right thing to do. Which is a belief that I find... I don't know how to phrase this...cynical. If we take that premise, then why are you not spending every possible moment helping save child slaves in China and Vietnam? What motivation do you have to, say, accumulate wealth or work hard at your job. As long as you've been a good person you're going to a better place, so why bother doing anything that isn't going to maximise your chances of getting to said better place?

[deathofrats0808]

When attempting to ascertain this from a logical standpoint, it is evident that there is neither empirical nor any tangible evidence to substantiate the supposition of an afterlife. Therefore, it is childish and asinine to believe in such a fatuous theory. Have you guys ever heard of Occam's Razor? Occam's Razor is a philosophical principle which states that the simplest answer is the most correct—i.e., the answer with the fewest assumptions is the correct answer. This principle can be applied to religion and science. Which is more likely: a magical, omnipotent being who somehow needs no creator itself created the universe, or natural processes created the universe? When discussing religion and science, one should not have preconceived notion and they should reason in a pragmatic way, as shown above.

Occam's Razor is not always correct though, and there are several problems with the statement 'natural processes created the universe'. This is not the thread to discuss that however, as this is a thread about what happens after death.

[MarvelsTheFixer]

But if when we did we go to a perfect place, what's the point of living in an imperfect one to begin with. Sure, living your life might mean something different to everybody, I'm aware of that, but even if there is no afterlife, why does it matter that we all end up gone? And I hate to point this out, but even if there is an afterlife, you don't know for certain which one it is, and to the best of my knowledge 90% of them say that only whether you do good or bad in life matters, bettering yourself doesn't count for a thing. It does not matter which one. Just having another destination is what matters. And you mentioned fame. All that people won't remember the dead stuff. Also, you seems to argue that the only reason to do good, and not bad is that we might be rewarded for it after we die,instead of doing it because it's the right thing to do. Which is a belief that I find... I don't know how to phrase this...cynical. This "right thing to do" argument is subjective. Which is the reason it fails. Not everybody subscribes to your notion of what the right thing to do is, therefore it is an invalid reason when deciding how people should live their lives. It, also, isn't about being rewarded. You should alter your decisions to reach a certain goal. If everyone's end point is death and nothingness, what would be the point of evaluating alternative actions? If we take that premise, then why are you not spending every possible moment helping save child slaves in China and Vietnam? What motivation do you have to, say, accumulate wealth or work hard at your job. As long as you've been a good person you're going to a better place, so why bother doing anything that isn't going to maximise your chances of getting to said better place?

Because you don't know what those things are. According to The Bible, almost every single action undertaken by humans is a sin, and, as such, disqualifies them from entry into Heaven. So, because we do not know if we have been disqualified already, there is no reason to go above and beyond what is in your power to do.

[deathofrats0808]

It does not matter which one. Just having another destination is what matters.

Really? Because if say, Norse mythology is correct then you're fucked, because there is almost certainly no way you're getting in.

This "right thing to do" argument is subjective. Which is the reason it fails. Not everybody subscribes to your notion of what the right thing to do is, therefore it is an invalid reason when deciding how people should live their lives. It, also, isn't about being rewarded. You should alter your decisions to reach a certain goal. If everyone's end point is death and nothingness, what would be the point of evaluating alternative actions?

To enjoy oneself? To ensure you live as long as possible? To have fun? Every few people ever evaluate every action by "will this action get me into heaven?" . Most risk/reward calculations are about earthly pleasures, because humans are built to do so. Anne If we follow your logic, or doing these actions to achieve the goal of getting into a 'good' afterlife then it is about reward. You are altering your behaviour solely based on the promise of pleasure after you die. Besides which I'm not making an argument that everyone should follow my moral code, I'm saying people should perform actions that are correct according to their morals, and the morals of the society they live in, rather than doing acts they perceive as good in hopes of entering an afterlife.

Because you don't know what those things are. According to The Bible, almost every single action undertaken by humans is a sin, and, as such, disqualifies them from entry into Heaven. So, because we do not know if we have been disqualified already, there is no reason to go above and beyond what is in your power to do.

Logic states that random actions are more likely to succeed then. If the criteria are unknown, then following a single set course (say, do good) is inefficient, because it fails to cover as wide a range of possibilities as completely random actions, or even systematically trying every action one after the other is.

Also, allow me to present a thought, if there are two people, one of whom believes in heaven and seems to go there, and spends his whole life living like a Monk from medieval times, eating bread and water, sleeping on cold stone and doing back breaking chores being utterly miserable with the one bright spot being the hope of getting into heaven, while the other believes that when we did we disappear forever, and lives a long life with a happy family and finding joy in what he has, who has lived a better life?

[MarvelsTheFixer]

That isn't up for you to decide.

No, you are warping everything to fit your understanding of what you think the afterlife is. That isn't what's happening here. You also keep mentioning Heaven as if anyone said that was only one that mattered. It isn't about getting into Heaven, it would be about the fact that there is a Heaven to get into, you don't have to change a single action and there is still a chance that you will get in. Humans aren't built to do anything. We are built for basic necessities, eating/drinking, sleeping, and going to the bathroom. Beyond that every single one of us is a different being. It has nothing to do with reward, it's about moving from goal to goal. Nobody said anything about pleasure, you are literally reading only what you want to read and you need to stop it. The next stop in the afterlife could be just as challenging as this one, if not more so, as is more than potentially the case when it comes to reincarnation. The only one making that argument is you, so I don't see why you feel the need to argue against yourself.

Logic doesn't state anything here. This is a religious/spiritual conversation. Logic and rationality has absolutely no place here. I'm not sure what point you are even trying to make here, but following a single set course is never efficient. That's something that goes without saying.

Your question is a biased one, in that (1) you lead the listener on to ensure that they pick your interpretation and, thus, support your case and (2) literally states the answer you want within the question itself. How do you know the opposites of both of those people don't exist? You are trying to shove idealism into an imperfect world. For every argument that exists, you will always find the exception somewhere out in the world. You act as if either one of us is going to change the other's mind, this is a worldview discussion. If it were so easy to change someone's mind, especially on a subject as complex and life altering as this, nobody would ever stand for anything.

[GrumpyGoomba]

What do you mean logic and rationality have no place here... This is a discussion, a debate. How can there be a debate without logic or rationality. We might as well be just cursing at each other and making stupid jokes because that is what does not require logic or rationality. Not a discussion where we are trying to achieve a meaningful answer.

[genericnpc]

It must be sad to go around being so consumed by anger.

Spoiler: yeah and all because you had to get up early on a sunday

[greenrabbit7]

I think that the afterlife is bullshit. There is no soul, only our memories that make us who we are and our bodily functions. But I'm also a jehovah's witness. Why? Well, I'm not going to be ressurected. That simple. Someone with my memories will. I, in truth, will die. The "coming after death" thing is a misconception. None of us have a soul or anything other then our body, and to say that we do is foolish. Now, why am I religious if I don't believe in the afterlife like everyone else, which is the reason for being religious in the first place? Simple, there's just so much proof in the original scriptures. Yes, people could have figured out the rib thing using corpses and carving them open, I rescind to that. But the bible also said the world was round and heliocentric in a time most people thought it was flat and geocentric. Why do this, ever?

Of course, my belief in god is justified in other ways, too. Obviously, as a jehovah's witness, I believe we are in Satan's system. Some people think god isnt real because he does nothing to help people with, say, cancer... but I think that's easily explained. First off, Jehovah made us with the intent of free will. You don't try to send your kids to school only to do all of their classes for them. Jehovah interfering would interfere with our free will, and make us the angels. We would be dependent on Jehovah. But besides that, we are also in Satan's system at the moment, and if Jehovah were to interfere, he would be being a dick to satan because he's letting him prove himself right now. Of course satan's still a jerk, but yeah.

Do I mind that I won't go to the afterlife, but someone like me will? Well, I mean... It sucks. But what am I gonna do, cry? No. I move on, I'm happy with my life and my status, and I will spend my finite time gaining as much knowledge as I possibly can.

[MarvelsTheFixer]

What do you mean logic and rationality have no place here...

I mean exactly what I said. There is a reason the topic is "religion vs science" rather than "the science of religion".

[Dodowarrior44]

"The burden of proof is on the person making a contentious claim. Within science, this translates to the burden resting on presenters of a paper, in which the presenters argue for their specific findings. This paper is placed before a panel of judges where the presenter must defend the thesis against all challenges."

Just wanted to make sure y'all knew about burden of proof. It's why I am an atheist:

There is no proof for god or an afterlife.