Forcing a draw in a no win situation

[cshizzle]

It's a great mind game, but requires thorough cooperation between the two remaining Town members to pull it off. This means that:

...the living Town member will not go favor the opposition should the opposition use AtE or any other persuasion methods.
...the living Town member should realize what's going on..
...both Town members know that there's nothing bad in getting a draw (specifically in Ranked, unless everyone magically loses elo should a draw occur).

Well you seem to get it, unfortunately very few other people do, or would just rather gamethrow opposed to taking a draw.

I'm not sure of your first statement because I don't know what AtE means. However, in my originally post in the 2v1v1 scenario, if the NE or the mafia attack the town and make it 1v1v1, the town should vote against whoever attacked them. Proper game theory demands it, otherwise there would be no incentive for the NE's NK's to agree to a draw in the first place.

[TheWabbit]

AtE stands for Appeal to Emotion.

It could end in the NK's favor (should they be a Serial Killer, unsure for the WW) if Mafia hits Town and SK hits either the other Town or Mafia. It could only work if both are foolish enough to try to accomplish this.

[0verki11]

I really only see a use for the in Ranked, it does require remaining town and NK/mafia members to have functioning brains (which can be a problem).

[Tharok]

Of course as usual all of this is only relevant to ranked, as despite the fact that nobody cares about ranked it is still the most talked about game mode.

[cshizzle]

A DRAW means everybody loses

Is this guy a moron or what? By his same logic, a draw means everyone wins because they avoided a loss. They spent productive time by averting disaster.

I almost feel bad for thowing his idiotic logic back in his face.

[dyaomaster]

Of course as usual all of this is only relevant to ranked, as despite the fact that nobody cares about ranked it is still the most talked about game mode.

Next time you’re Mafia or NK, I fully expect you to out yourself and your team so that you can maximize the number of people (Town) winning.

[ShylokVakarian]

Because nobody likes draws, draws might as well be a waste of everybody's time if they can be prevented.

*ahem* I beg to differ. I actually LIKE draws. Maybe it's the cup-collecting argonian in me (I have a Skyrim hoarding problem, like most people), but draws come by so infrequently that whenever there's a good reason to have a draw, I will take it. Just like I take empty wine bottles in Skyrim.

Yeah, I have a problem.

[Tharok]

Is this guy a moron or what? By his same logic, a draw means everyone wins because they avoided a loss. They spent productive time by averting disaster.

I almost feel bad for thowing his idiotic logic back in his face.

Are you an idiot? You just asked me if I was a moron? You suck at pretty much everything.

That isn't my logic at all. A draw means everyone loses because they just wasted their time doing something that resulted in nothing. It wasn't productive at all, a loss is not equitable to disaster.

The only idiotic logic was yours. Not only because it was garbage, which we all know it to be, but because it wasn't even close to my line of thinking.

Normally, when someone uses the phrase "by his same logic," it could genuinely be applicable to the situation. But, I'm afraid the way you used it makes you look like a dead, retarded horse. Quite unfortunate really, we were all pulling for you, but it appears you won't be making a recovery after all.

[Cubit32]

in ranked presumably the greatest good is to gain Elo so winning > drawing > losing, in ranked. You can make up whatever logic you like for other modes.

[dyaomaster]

in ranked presumably the greatest good is to gain Elo so winning > drawing > losing, in ranked. You can make up whatever logic you like for other modes.

I argue that in most Ranked Practice and Classic games, the optimal Mafia strategy is for everybody to reveal themself on day 1, so that the greatest number of people win.

[frds628]

The scenario no one has brought up is SK killing a townie then claiming Mafia, or Mafia killing then claiming they are SK.

In the 1v1v1 scenario, I've seen a townie say "I'll give it to NK" then give it to a Mafia claiming SK. Usually only happens if SK is not smart.

If one or the other is known that this doesn't work, however.

[dyaomaster]

The scenario no one has brought up is SK killing a townie then claiming Mafia, or Mafia killing then claiming they are SK.

In the 1v1v1 scenario, I've seen a townie say "I'll give it to NK" then give it to a Mafia claiming SK. Usually only happens if SK is not smart.

If one or the other is known that this doesn't work, however.

If a townie really wants to give it to the SK, they should just not vote for anyone.

[spelerthomas]

The scenario no one has brought up is SK killing a townie then claiming Mafia, or Mafia killing then claiming they are SK.

In the 1v1v1 scenario, I've seen a townie say "I'll give it to NK" then give it to a Mafia claiming SK. Usually only happens if SK is not smart.

If one or the other is known that this doesn't work, however.

This is the only way for mafia to win, so its understandable. If both claim SK, then townie just should not vote. Or he could vote SK and let maf win on purpose. It doesn't happen much, but it happens.

[koopi15]

Really though, sk and maf could kill both townies same night and sk wins if maf is stupid enough to do it. So the threat in this case is nothing.
And- what if SK AND MAF kill the same person? What side will remaining town choose?

[Descender]

The idea is flawed, most of the time the sk would win.

[Manhax]

Because outside of ranked nobody really cares about their win-loss-draw count.

Lol, why wouldn't you play to win? That's sort of the challenge of this game, regardless of the mode you play.

[Manhax]

in ranked presumably the greatest good is to gain Elo so winning > drawing > losing, in ranked. You can make up whatever logic you like for other modes.

I argue that in most Ranked Practice and Classic games, the optimal Mafia strategy is for everybody to reveal themself on day 1, so that the greatest number of people win.

But the goal isn't to merely end up winning a lot, you want to win as much as possible, and more than other people. Thus, everyone ends up playing to win to push an edge.

[Tharok]

Lol, why wouldn't you play to win? That's sort of the challenge of this game, regardless of the mode you play.

I never said that, your reading comprehension needs some work.

The mode you play matters because Ranked is literally defined by the number of wins you have, so every player will be extremely critical of every move you make and you more about whether you win or lose. All other modes are just casual. Whether you win or lose you move on without it affecting you that much, if at all.

[tarhelcaraxe]

Why shouldn't it be gamethrowin?. IMO if you aren't attempting for the best possible outcome it SHOULD be gamethrowing.

Logically what you say is right. Isn't this in the rules? I would go crazy if people don't prefer the best outcome.

[Manhax]

Lol, why wouldn't you play to win? That's sort of the challenge of this game, regardless of the mode you play.

I never said that, your reading comprehension needs some work.

The mode you play matters because Ranked is literally defined by the number of wins you have, so every player will be extremely critical of every move you make and you more about whether you win or lose. All other modes are just casual. Whether you win or lose you move on without it affecting you that much, if at all.

This is specifically an argument about draw situations, and why they're avoided in casual modes. I'm saying there's no good reason for this. If a draw is obvious with no good win path, you should force it the best you can.

You also quite specifically said:

A DRAW means everybody loses because they have wasted their time doing something that didn't change anything from whence they started.

so it would seem that my interpretation is quite correct. Not to mention, I clearly am explaining why it does matter in all modes. Since you agree, why does this not apply to draws?

You appear to merely insult everyone you speak to, so at this point I may as well assume you're some kid who's never had a fruitful discussion in their life.

[Manhax]

Yes you misunderstand things because you don't read. My first question was "are things different in this scenario if jester has won". Someone else replied "Yes, you can't draw if jester has won."

Yes, one of us lacks reading comprehension skills and it isn't me.

"Yes, you can't draw if jester has won."

Did you honestly scrutinize that statement or did you assume it to be true because some random idiot on the internet said so? Try reading it again, and this time use your brain and think critically!!! I'm honestly not making fun of you anymore, I just want you to think.

Ask yourself the following questions:
1) If the jester gets hanged, should you just give up? Is it okay to intentionally lose because the jester got hanged?
2) If so, how will your teammates feel if you take such actions. Won't they be pissed that you gave up and threw the game?

If you answer those questions and you still think it is okay to intentionally lose then fine, but I honestly don't understand how anyone could come to that conclusion.

This is a bit of a weird reading error to make. "Can't draw if Jester has won" does not lead to throwing. It literally means that, if the Jester wins, a draw is not possible, and, in a condition where Town cannot win, they will always lose, even with stall timers. This is because a draw cannot occur when the Jester has won, as instead you'll get a Jester wins screen.

As it is, I think this is actually false. Jester win screen doesn't change the game from functionally considering the status of factions like NK, Mafia, and Town as drawed, so you can draw when Jester has won. You didn't make this argument though, which is quite confusing.

[Descender]

A jester and exe can win with anyone after they do their tasks. That is not the point. The point is, if it is gf, sk, and 2 townies, you can't win without any throwing. Unless you are a veteran of or trans or something, where you can create a draw with trans and possibly win with veteran, but it really depends on your way of playing the game. You can cause a draw in a no-win situation if you want, you can just lose or leave on your own grounds, but you will never be able to please everybody.

[Manhax]

A jester and exe can win with anyone after they do their tasks.

Is this directed at me? The original question had nothing to do with Jester or Exe victory status given a draw, it had to do with other teams drawing if one of those roles has won the game. Specifically, a draw will give them a win screen (instead of saying the game drawed, it will say "Executioner wins" or "Jester wins"), but it will still count as a draw for everyone else (rather than a loss).

[Tharok]

This is specifically an argument about draw situations, and why they're avoided in casual modes. I'm saying there's no good reason for this. If a draw is obvious with no good win path, you should force it the best you can.

You also quite specifically said:

A DRAW means everybody loses because they have wasted their time doing something that didn't change anything from whence they started.

so it would seem that my interpretation is quite correct. Not to mention, I clearly am explaining why it does matter in all modes. Since you agree, why does this not apply to draws?

You appear to merely insult everyone you speak to, so at this point I may as well assume you're some kid who's never had a fruitful discussion in their life.

No, actually you just misinterpreted everything and are now doing your best to not admit you were wrong to avoid embarrassing yourself. Your reading comprehension is still complete trash. You are also somehow aligning me with the idea that you should force a draw as best you can if you cannot win, which I do not agree with in every case. Yet you so erroneously believe I do. A draw is bad. That's what I said. You are advocating for draws. In what way could I possibly agree with you?

Get over yourself.

[Manhax]

No, actually you just misinterpreted everything and are now doing your best to not admit you were wrong to avoid embarrassing yourself. Your reading comprehension is still complete trash. You are also somehow aligning me with the idea that you should force a draw as best you can if you cannot win, which I do not agree with in every case. Yet you so erroneously believe I do. A draw is bad. That's what I said. You are advocating for draws. In what way could I possibly agree with you?

No, I am aware you disagree with such, I'm saying that your logic (that you should play to win) seems to support the idea that you should force a draw when you cannot win. After all, a draw is essentially avoiding a loss, so you'd just be going for the greatest outcome.

I stated that we agree that you should play to win, but you have a different idea of what that means.