Forcing a draw in a no win situation

[cshizzle]

Maybe I waited a week to respond because I have an actual job and a life outside of Town of Salem? I'd advise you to do the same. Not all of us have the luxury of checking these forums 5 times per day.

Since you failed to make a cogent point, I'm going to make this VERY simple for you. Win > draw > loss. If you prefer a loss over a draw you are a gamethrower. People like you ruin the game for everybody else.

You are obviously the biggest asshole on the forums. You clearly waited a week because you thought you wouldn't get a response. I'd advise you to be less of a complete dick, maybe you won't be completely wrong as often.

You failed to make a cogent point dipshit. All your saying is "win>draw>loss" without saying anything to back it up. ON TOP OF THAT, your arguments have been bitch slapped multiple times. Allow me to REPEAT why you are wrong ONCE AGAIN, A DRAW means everybody loses because they have wasted their time doing something that didn't change anything from whence they started. No, people like you ruin the game for everyone else. Not only because you shove your shitty opinions down people's throats, but you can't even argue without being a bitch about it. Plain and simple.

The rage is strong with this one.

Are you seriously arguing that Win>Draw>Loss is incorrect? Do I REALLY need to back that up? If so, I think we all know who the real "dipshit" is. You either fail to comprehend basic logic or you don't understand English.

[Chemist1422]

Friendly reminder to keep things civil before a mod comes here and does the same.

[Tharok]

The rage is strong with this one.

Are you seriously arguing that Win>Draw>Loss is incorrect? Do I REALLY need to back that up? If so, I think we all know who the real "dipshit" is. You either fail to comprehend basic logic or you don't understand English.

Not really. You are just a complete moron who has obviously failed to read the entire thread, ignored what has been said, or was too slow to comprehend it.

Win>Draw>Loss IS incorrect for the billionth time. YES, you need to back that up. You moron, if you can't even grasp where we are in the conversation you have already lost. The real dipshit has been and always will be, UNEQUIVOCALLY, you. Failing to come up with your own arguments isn't helping your case at all.

Go back. Read what has been said. Come back with a coherent argument. No need for you to repeatedly get bitch slapped like this.

[cshizzle]

Win>Draw>Loss IS incorrect for the billionth time. YES, you need to back that up.

"Do I REALLY need to back that up?" was a rhetorical question. The fact that you failed to pick up on that makes me question your intelligence. Because I'm a gentleman I won't sink to calling you names but I think we all know what you are. I literally can't explain to you how a win > draw > loss anymore than I can explain how 3 > 2 > 1. It comes down to basic logic that I cannot simplify anymore for your extremely limited mind. Did your mom cry a lot when you were a child? I certainly would have if I were her.

[dyaomaster]

If a draw is worse than a loss because more people lose, doesn't that mean that a loss as Mafia is better than a win as Mafia (or NK) because less people lose?

So the optimal play as Mafia and NK is to all reveal day 1 and commit group suicide, leading to the greatest number of people winnng.

[Tharok]

"Do I REALLY need to back that up?" was a rhetorical question. The fact that you failed to pick up on that makes me question your intelligence. Because I'm a gentleman I won't sink to calling you names but I think we all know what you are. I literally can't explain to you how a win > draw > loss anymore than I can explain how 3 > 2 > 1. It comes down to basic logic that I cannot simplify anymore for your extremely limited mind. Did your mom cry a lot when you were a child? I certainly would have if I were her.

Clearly it was not a rhetorical question at all. Since you got the answer wrong. Thereby putting your intelligence into question. You aren't a gentleman, in fact, you are the biggest prick here. You are the dumbest bitch I have met on the forums, since you lack the capacity to actually read. Not only are you a complete bitch for not actually reading something before commenting about it, but you are a complete retard who thinks he is a gentleman, but brings in completely random unnecessary information.

Not sure why you would ask the question if you were just going to whine and complain about the correct answer.

It's that simple. Ignore reality all you want. It will not get you anywhere.

[James2]

Could you two get a room?

[SarahSaurus]

Draw > Loss. You lose Elo with a Loss, you don't with a Draw.

In a scenario where your only options are to Draw or to Lose, you should try to create a Draw. Anything else is intentionally creating a Loss, which would be gamethrowing.

[foggyartsit3]

I'm honestly sorry for both Tharok and cshizzle in this case because you've both become so set in your thoughts that neither of you can understand the other person's thought, nor the bigger picture of this thread. Tharok is saying that the value of drawing out a game is doesn't outweigh the value of the time lost doing so, while Cshizzle is saying the exact opposite. The thing that neither of you understand is that how you value you W/L ratio is entirely opinionative. Neither of you are objectively right until the definition of gamethrowing is properly defined, because as it stands you both have different opinions as to what a loss actually means. Is a draw the same as a loss (because it wastes everyone's time?), well until a mod can clear this up nobody will know.This is a good thread for us all to learn from. Good day Gentlemen.

Because I'm a gentleman I won't sink to calling you names but I think we all know what you are.

Now retreating from my objective view on the situation I personally agree with cshizzle, maybe I'm a no-life but I love looking at my W/L ratio and smiling.

[foggyartsit3]

Draw > Loss. You lose Elo with a Loss, you don't with a Draw.

In a scenario where your only options are to Draw or to Lose, you should try to create a Draw. Anything else is intentionally creating a Loss, which would be gamethrowing.

After a game has ended you either get an image of a standing townie with the word "Victory" above it or a dead townie with the word "Defeat". If After a draw my townie is dead yet I get a Draw in my win-loss-draw counter WTH happened that game? Is my draw actually a loss? Is it OK to think of a draw as a loss and force a loss?

What I'm saying is that we need a concrete definition of gamethrowing that includes the term "draw".

One question I have for everyone is: If intentionally losing when a draw is possible is GAMETHROWING, then is intentionally drawing when a win is possible GAMETHROWING too?

I can't express enough how much we need this term redefined. But I guess I've derailed this thread.

[Tharok]

I'm honestly sorry for both Tharok and cshizzle in this case because you've both become so set in your thoughts that neither of you can understand the other person's thought

No, I get his point. He just sucks at delivering it without being arrogant and egotistical.

[dyaomaster]

If a draw is worse than a loss because more people lose, doesn't that mean that a loss as Mafia is better than a win as Mafia (or NK) because less people lose?

So the optimal play as Mafia and NK is to all reveal day 1 and commit group suicide, leading to the greatest number of people winnng.

[SpellChecker]

Could you two get a room?

'Nice one.

You guys need to stop fighting over trivial matters and reach a conclusion, because insulting each other is just gonna lead to thread getting locked and you both getting warning. Do you want that? No.

Please get back on topic, and be polite. I am not tolerating any toxicity with this reminder in mind.

[SarahSaurus]

Draw > Loss. You lose Elo with a Loss, you don't with a Draw.

In a scenario where your only options are to Draw or to Lose, you should try to create a Draw. Anything else is intentionally creating a Loss, which would be gamethrowing.

After a game has ended you either get an image of a standing townie with the word "Victory" above it or a dead townie with the word "Defeat". If After a draw my townie is dead yet I get a Draw in my win-loss-draw counter WTH happened that game? Is my draw actually a loss? Is it OK to think of a draw as a loss and force a loss?

What I'm saying is that we need a concrete definition of gamethrowing that includes the term "draw".

One question I have for everyone is: If intentionally losing when a draw is possible is GAMETHROWING, then is intentionally drawing when a win is possible GAMETHROWING too?

I can't express enough how much we need this term redefined. But I guess I've derailed this thread.

Obviously, a Draw =/= a Win. But a Draw =/= a Loss, either. With a Win, you gain Elo. With a Loss, you lose Elo. With a Draw, you neither gain nor lose Elo.

Win>Draw>Loss.

This honestly should be common sense and I don't know how else to explain it to you. If you intentionally avoid winning, you are not following your win conditions. You should always aim to win. If winning is not possible, but a Draw is, then you should always aim for a Draw, because it does not punish your team, whereas a Loss does.

I mean why would you intentionally make yourself lose Elo, when you could avoid it? That doesn't make any sense.

[foggyartsit3]

This honestly should be common sense and I don't know how else to explain it to you. If you intentionally avoid winning, you are not following your win conditions. You should always aim to win. If winning is not possible, but a Draw is, then you should always aim for a Draw, because it does not punish your team, whereas a Loss does.

That is precisely my point, to gamethrow is to not follow your win conditions, but your win conditions only involve your winning. I'm a no win situation the term "Gamethrowing" doesn't apply simply because the term is applied to a player's intention on influencing the outcome of a game, not on team punishment. In the way BMG defined the term, In a no win situation it isn't possible to purposefully disobey your win conditions, therefore forcing a loss over a draw in a no win situation isn't gamethrowing.

Basically I typed this out to tell you, SarahSaurus, that you have no Idea how much I wish for you to be right, and Morally you are correct, but forcing a loss over a draw isn't gamethrowing. It may be a jerk thing to do to your team but you can't betray your win conditions when you had no chance of winning to begin with.

I'm not arguing as to what you should do

You should always aim to win.

But rather I'm arguing as to what you can do without breaking any rules (specifically the point where Cshizzle claimed that forcing a loss in a no win situation was gamethrowing).

[cshizzle]

This honestly should be common sense and I don't know how else to explain it to you. If you intentionally avoid winning, you are not following your win conditions. You should always aim to win. If winning is not possible, but a Draw is, then you should always aim for a Draw, because it does not punish your team, whereas a Loss does.

That is precisely my point, to gamethrow is to not follow your win conditions, but your win conditions only involve your winning. I'm a no win situation the term "Gamethrowing" doesn't apply simply because the term is applied to a player's intention on influencing the outcome of a game, not on team punishment. In the way BMG defined the term, In a no win situation it isn't possible to purposefully disobey your win conditions, therefore forcing a loss over a draw in a no win situation isn't gamethrowing.

Basically I typed this out to tell you, SarahSaurus, that you have no Idea how much I wish for you to be right, and Morally you are correct, but forcing a loss over a draw isn't gamethrowing. It may be a jerk thing to do to your team but you can't betray your win conditions when you had no chance of winning to begin with.

I'm not arguing as to what you should do

You should always aim to win.

But rather I'm arguing as to what you can do without breaking any rules (specifically the point where Cshizzle claimed that forcing a loss in a no win situation was gamethrowing).

First off, I'm over a foot taller than you (6'7" baby), not that it has anything to do with the topic at hand but at least I was considerate enough to read your signature.

Second off, I've stopped arguing with you know who. If I can't convince him with common sense and logic there is no point in me talking to him, I might as well be explaining calculus to my dog.

Thirdly, the fact that the devlopers only factor wins and losses for game throwing shows they haven't thouroughly thought out their system. In any other sport where a draw is possible: hockey, soccer, chess (in rare occasions NFL football) a draw is always preferable to a loss. Intentionally losing goes against the spirit of the game.

Finally, this is very important, I originally made this post in strategic discussions for a reason. I didn't want to argue about the rules of the game, I just wanted to demonstrate a tactic: how the townies could force a draw over a loss. I just assumed everyone would prefer a draw over a loss. I guess everyone isn't in unanimous agreement over it but when it come down to WHY they don't agree the only reason I can think of is that it isn't technically against the rules (they won't be banned) and because there aren't any consquences, it gives them free reign to troll.

[spelerthomas]

Aren't things different when Jester has won? What are you going to in that scenario? Draw is not possible in that case (or am I wrong here?).

[Mathelete]

Aren't things different when Jester has won? What are you going to in that scenario? Draw is not possible in that case (or am I wrong here?).

In that scenario, you can no longer draw the game, so if you know you can't win, you might as well go for the option that ends the game the fastest, unless you have the option of helping one of the other factions (example: helping SK win over mafia).

[spelerthomas]

Aren't things different when Jester has won? What are you going to in that scenario? Draw is not possible in that case (or am I wrong here?).

In that scenario, you can no longer draw the game, so if you know you can't win, you might as well go for the option that ends the game the fastest, unless you have the option of helping one of the other factions (example: helping SK win over mafia).

Yes, the scenario is a whole lot different. I don't think many people realise this, though. They still think a draw is ok even when jester dies, not realising everyone except jester will simply lose.
I've once had lost no elo when I was mafia and all our mafia died and game was still going on. How? Game was left with jailor that can't execute, an arso, and a jester with attitude 'if I dont win nobody wins'. It was a draw for everyone, including mafia. I'm wondering if jester also had a draw and lost no elo. These draw mechanics are a bit confusing and strange to me.

[Mathelete]

Aren't things different when Jester has won? What are you going to in that scenario? Draw is not possible in that case (or am I wrong here?).

In that scenario, you can no longer draw the game, so if you know you can't win, you might as well go for the option that ends the game the fastest, unless you have the option of helping one of the other factions (example: helping SK win over mafia).

Yes, the scenario is a whole lot different. I don't think many people realise this, though. They still think a draw is ok even when jester dies, not realising everyone except jester will simply lose.
I've once had lost no elo when I was mafia and all our mafia died and game was still going on. How? Game was left with jailor that can't execute, an arso, and a jester with attitude 'if I dont win nobody wins'. It was a draw for everyone, including mafia. I'm wondering if jester also had a draw and lost no elo. These draw mechanics are a bit confusing and strange to me.

Jester gets a draw too. I had a draw due to no deaths, and I was jester. It counted as a draw for me too.

[cshizzle]

Aren't things different when Jester has won? What are you going to in that scenario? Draw is not possible in that case (or am I wrong here?).

I don't understand your argument. Are you merely talking about the pop up message at the end of the game?

If there is a draw, ie. no mafia/town/nk wins, the change in ELO for all of them is zero whether or not the jester wins or loses. So technically a "jester wins" counts as a draw for everyone else.

Did I misunderstand your question or is there anything more to it?

[cshizzle]

Yes, the scenario is a whole lot different. I don't think many people realise this, though. They still think a draw is ok even when jester dies, not realising everyone except jester will simply lose.

Wow, what an incredibly weak strategy! Do people seriously play games like this? If so I sincerely hope you are never on my team for anything!

Unless you ARE the jester, he is NOT on your team. The jester's can literally align with anyone (even the town) if it will help him get hanged. Besides if he already lost, you think that making your own team lose will make him feel better?

I honestly don't understand your logic, at this point it seems you are just looking for excuses to throw the game.

[spelerthomas]

Aren't things different when Jester has won? What are you going to in that scenario? Draw is not possible in that case (or am I wrong here?).

I don't understand your argument. Are you merely talking about the pop up message at the end of the game?

If there is a draw, ie. no mafia/town/nk wins, the change in ELO for all of them is zero whether or not the jester wins or loses. So technically a "jester wins" counts as a draw for everyone else.

Did I misunderstand your question or is there anything more to it?

Yes you misunderstand things because you don't read. My first question was "are things different in this scenario if jester has won". Someone else replied "Yes, you can't draw if jester has won." Maybe you should try reading first before you spit out all that "GAMETHROW QQ GAMETRHOW QQ GAMETHROW QQ" bullcrap. Thanks.

[TheWabbit]

It's a great mind game, but requires thorough cooperation between the two remaining Town members to pull it off. This means that:

...the living Town member will not go favor the opposition should the opposition use AtE or any other persuasion methods.
...the living Town member should realize what's going on..
...both Town members know that there's nothing bad in getting a draw (specifically in Ranked, unless everyone magically loses elo should a draw occur).

[cshizzle]

Yes you misunderstand things because you don't read. My first question was "are things different in this scenario if jester has won". Someone else replied "Yes, you can't draw if jester has won."

Yes, one of us lacks reading comprehension skills and it isn't me.

"Yes, you can't draw if jester has won."

Did you honestly scrutinize that statement or did you assume it to be true because some random idiot on the internet said so? Try reading it again, and this time use your brain and think critically!!! I'm honestly not making fun of you anymore, I just want you to think.

Ask yourself the following questions:
1) If the jester gets hanged, should you just give up? Is it okay to intentionally lose because the jester got hanged?
2) If so, how will your teammates feel if you take such actions. Won't they be pissed that you gave up and threw the game?

If you answer those questions and you still think it is okay to intentionally lose then fine, but I honestly don't understand how anyone could come to that conclusion.