The Stranger (Neutral Killing)

[oddluck]

The Stranger (Neutral Killing)

You can only kill players that have either a) targeted you with their ability, b) people who have sent you a whisper or c) people who have voted against you

At night you will know of all players who fits the criteria and you can deal a basic attack to one of them, if no one living has targeted/whispered/voted you then you will be unable to attack

If you are Jailed then it means that Jailor did a) targeted you with their ability, done during the day making them a valid candidate for an attack from you that night. Click the button next to your name to attack the Jailor while you are jailed

Invest results with Spy, Blackmailer, Jailor, Stranger


This role is particularly weak against Mayors but really strong against Jailors

[Bodhrak]

Concepts Not To Make:
Limited Neutral Killing - Neutral Killing roles that have limitations to how and who they can kill

I feel this is a RNG role and in a lot of ways just a worse SK.

[oddluck]

Those guidelines are a) for beginners and b) guidelines not rules

[Bodhrak]

OK, I'll iterate some more why this role is terrible - and I won't mention RNG at all.

N1: You can't kill anyone unless you are jailed or someone whispered you. Both cases would instantly reveal you (Jailors will / only whisper that happenend), so don't choose them!
N2: Your kill options may be very limited and players may be able to deduce who you are based on what happened D2 or the N1 visit of the killed persons will. So, probably don't do that.
N3: You now have enough options to kill, so slay away. You are a SK.
The Endgame: There may be some roles that have never visited, nor whispered, nor voted against you - maybe a confirmed Ret, maybe a Medium, maybe a Mafioso. And you can't do anything about it. At some point you will get voted up and as NK noone will believe a Spy fakeclaim with a ton of holes in it.

Now compare this to the good old SK who can just kill who they want, anytime they want.
What does this role gain in comparison and what makes it different enough?

[greenrabbit7]

As he said, this role is bad, as it is literally hardcountered by a town just doing nothing. At all. Maybe one person, an escort, goes around rbing everyone. If they die, the stranger is there. Of course there could be mafia, but as soon as the mafia is lynched... This role has nothing. You just do nothing as the stranger kills people, look for similarities in who they visited in their wills, and POE them. Soon, you'll legit know exactly who they are. Then people will just put who they whispered or voted in their wills, too.

[Parallax7]

Those guidelines are a) for beginners and b) guidelines not rules

Hi there - it’s important users understand why there are guidelines. Because the information they cover is proven to be ideal, and balanced. More often than not, your posts will be irrelevant if they aren’t in alliance. Choreography and balance are ideal when posting, and while there can be exceptions strictly with the latter, it’s uncommon.

Welcome to Role Ideas ~ where we take our guidelines very seriously.

[oddluck]

Wow

[Parallax7]

Wow

Also, I might as well provide you some feedback on your role while I’m here, it suffers the same issue Werewolf does, which lead to TG’s overhaul of it - this being, it’s kill capability is visit dependent. This is often unbalanced, additionally, this role’s whisper interaction is pretty awful. If a player has whispered to you, you inherently out yourself. Which is negative utility.

In regards to your “wow” comment, you aren’t in trouble, mind you, as you’re correct they are guidelines. If you have anything you’d like to say off topic of this specific post, PM a Role Idea moderator. Ciao.

[oddluck]

I feel like people aren't getting this role, The Stranger can abstain if they want to they don't have to give themselves away

They can kill anyone that has made contact with them via votes, whispers and actions. Once contacted the player remains killable for the rest of the game

They will know whoever has contacted them via these methods because they will be presented with the option to kill them

You can whisper people, they will probably whisper you back

You can vote people, they will probably vote you back

This is a role that takes advantage of all of the mechanics that this game has

[greenrabbit7]

I feel like people aren't getting this role, The Stranger can abstain if they want to they don't have to give themselves away

An NK's ability should not be determined by it's ability to abstain. All an nk has to do is kill as many people as possible to win; they shouldn't have to dierge from that.

They can kill anyone that has made contact with them via votes, whispers and actions. Once contacted the player remains killable for the rest of the game

The problem with this is the PoE aspect. You can easily just figure out who people visited, determine who is NOT and who IS the stranger, ect ect. Lets soppose each day someone visits a different person, votes a different person, and whispers a different person.
N2 kill - 4
N3 kill - 7
N4 kill - 10
So in other words, it becomes better for you just not to kill. But most people do not whisper someone daily, and some people don't even vote.

They will know whoever has contacted them via these methods because they will be presented with the option to kill them

Lit. Dosen't matter.

You can whisper people, they will probably whisper you back

Makes you a suspect.

You can vote people, they will probably vote you back

This is a bit silly, most people won't vote you back just for a vote. They'll say you're a jester.

This is a role that takes advantage of all of the mechanics that this game has

It doesn't. It dosen't take advantage of chat whatsoever. But reguardless of wether or not you take advantage of mechanics, it dosen't stop the role from being a worse sk simply because it is better if it does NOT kill. Sk can kill, this shouldn't. The exact opposite goal for a nk,

[Bodhrak]

I mean, i get what you're aiming at.
This is a NK that can (to some extent) avoid attacking certain targets, that would be a bad/impossible to kill anyway.
Jester/Exe
Godfather/Janitor/Forger (early in game) / other NK
Veteran
Medium / Vigilante
So your chances of hitting important roles like Jailor and TI are higher.

But it just ends up hurting itself.
Lets assume you're going a really "safe" route, you don't attack for the first three nights.
Then on the 4th night you strike and hit a Sheriff. All great yes?
But the will reveals 3 people visited by the Sheriff, one of them already dead.
People scroll up and see: The Sheriff never whispered. He only voted for one player still alive.
Makes for 3 possible players being madman.
Make another kill and people will circle back around to you very quickly.
Or abstain from attacking even more, but that just means more chances for TI to find you, more chances for claims, more chances for mafia to target you then reveal your immunity and so on.

[Kikigiri]

I was just thinking of a similar role. Here's a few ideas for how to fix it.

1. Make it so anyone who whispers you or anyone you have sent a whisper to becomes a possible target, permanently (in addition to anyone who has visited you becoming a target permanently.) This solves the core problem of depending too much on others' actions. It also makes it a bit harder for people to instantly deduce who you are (since you can eg. kill someone who visited you after they also received a whisper, throwing suspicion on someone else - anyone who whispered to or from your target is a potential suspect.) Of course, sending whispers and then killing people might out you - but it's much more under your control. And in general, it punishes "whisper me roles!", which is a strategy that badly needs to be discouraged - if everyone whispers the Jailor roles, you can just kill them. Which leads to the second point.

2. Astral attack that cannot be healed and which ignores all temporary sources of immunity (BGs, vests, alerts, etc.) It might sound like a bit much, but this is reasonable given their restrictions and is vital to serve the core purpose of punishing "whisper network" strategies where everyone whispers their role to a confirmed town - now, receiving a ton of whispers from many different people becomes a dangerous vulnerability that cannot simply be prevented with a doctor or BG. Also, this avoids the problem of "worse than an SK" - in exchange for the trade-off of limitations that potentially out you, you get an attack that bypasses many of the things that frequently catch or out an SK. In other words, you have to be caught by different means.

3. If you didn't attack last night, then your next attack is a rampage. This serves to reduce the randomness aspect further by ensuring that missing a kill is not a big deal. It allows you to delay killing if your only options would out you, without losing too much ground in the long term; and when you do kill, the rampage will sometimes make it harder for the town to figure out who was targeted and, therefore, makes it harder for them to just look over past whispers to produce a list of suspects. And, of course, it adds to the main purpose I'm going for here - you can severely punish towns that try to operate via a protected central "hub" figure who receives a bunch of whispers, since you can now attack them with impunity due to everyone who ever sent them a whisper being a suspect, both ignoring and killing all the Town who were protecting them. (Edit: Another possibility is that anyone who visited your target the night you killed them is permanently added to your list of possible targets. This 'contagion' model makes it harder for towns to track who you are and aren't allowed to attack, while still serving the core purpose of punishing whisper-promiscuous towns - especially if they send a lot of whispers to someone and then try to visit and protect them, a very common strategy.)

Yes, I know there are other ways to try and fix Jailor games or whisper games in general. But the reality is that whisper games have been a major problem for the game's entire history; it's not specific to the Jailor or to any one role, role-list, or mechanic. I think having a role that specifically punishes them is valuable. And this addresses most of the objections people have above - being able to whisper people to add them as potential targets (permanently) makes it a bit less RNG-y and allows you to, with some foresight, ensure you can attack key people later in the game. The astral pseudo-powerful attack and ability to optionally delay for a rampage both gives them an advantage the SK doesn't have (to make up for their limitations) and compensates them for normally missing an attack N1.

But most of all it gives the role a purpose - I feel every role idea should have a purpose, some way they impact the meta in terms of rewarding some broad strategies and punishing others. In this case, you'd be punishing towns that whisper too much, and especially ones that try to send a bunch of whispers to a single hub. The advantages outlined above would be sufficient that, even if the town avoids that strategy, you'd still be able to serve as a credible threat.