Replace Arsonist with Juggernaut

[goldtrotter]

Arsonist is the hardest role in the game. It is nearly impossible to win as it. The KPN is also terrible, and oftentimes doused targets will be killed by some other means. Any modificaiton either is redundant, not enough, or makes the role jump from under- to over-powered. So I got a solution: Replace it with Juggernaut.

Here's how it would be done.
Step 1: Remove Arsonist from the game.
Step 2: Make Juggernaut a role available as a Neutral Killing in Normal as well as Coven.
Step 3: Stop pretending this role does not exist. List it in the role list, and give it an investigative result. If the Plaguebearer gets an investigative result, Juggernaut definitely should. Since it is replacing Arsonist, make the investigative result Bodyguard/Godfather/Juggernaut.
Step 4: Have Juggernaut start off with Basic Defense, then gain Powerful Defense on the second kill. Alternatively, Juggernaut can start off with Basic Defense until attacked like Witch has, then can gain permanent Basic Defense on the second kill.
Step 5: Mission accomplished!

[goldtrotter]

Furthermore, this would give Town of Salem a lot more traffic for people wanting to try out Juggernaut and it would be a good marketing thing.

[goldtrotter]

A: Removing roles from the game is not something I will ever agree with. Difficult as it may be, Arsonist is a fun role, especially in all any when multiple arsos can spawn. Arso just needs a few more tweaks to give it a fairer chance at winning, but it's not completely garbage that should be trashed. No role is on that level.

B: Juggernaut is a selling point for Coven, all of the exclusive roles are. I do believe that if you start pulling roles from Coven for the main game, the hype of buying Coven continues to go down and it will be less profitable.

/nosupport

What Arsonist tweaks would you make? I have thought long and hard on this and have come up with nothing except reworking it to be similar to Poisoner. So, if you have an ideas I would honestly appreciate if you shared them. Also, I only said they should pull one role from Coven, not start a pattern of doing so.

[DragonClaw66]

A: Removing roles from the game is not something I will ever agree with. Difficult as it may be, Arsonist is a fun role, especially in all any when multiple arsos can spawn. Arso just needs a few more tweaks to give it a fairer chance at winning, but it's not completely garbage that should be trashed. No role is on that level.

B: Juggernaut is a selling point for Coven, all of the exclusive roles are. I do believe that if you start pulling roles from Coven for the main game, the hype of buying Coven continues to go down and it will be less profitable.

/nosupport

What Arsonist tweaks would you make? I have thought long and hard on this and have come up with nothing except reworking it to be similar to Poisoner. So, if you have an ideas I would honestly appreciate if you shared them. Also, I only said they should pull one role from Coven, not start a pattern of doing so.

Arsonist Overhaul

[Kirigirii]

I honestly find Arsonist the easiest of the three NKs, mainly because I’m good at it and my Investigator claim is very believeable most of the time. Not just that but it doesn’t have to worry about TP and can be devastating if you’re good at predicting who will die. I think it’s a good role but with a high skill cap compared to the others, SK in particular.

[goldtrotter]

A: Removing roles from the game is not something I will ever agree with. Difficult as it may be, Arsonist is a fun role, especially in all any when multiple arsos can spawn. Arso just needs a few more tweaks to give it a fairer chance at winning, but it's not completely garbage that should be trashed. No role is on that level.

B: Juggernaut is a selling point for Coven, all of the exclusive roles are. I do believe that if you start pulling roles from Coven for the main game, the hype of buying Coven continues to go down and it will be less profitable.

/nosupport

What Arsonist tweaks would you make? I have thought long and hard on this and have come up with nothing except reworking it to be similar to Poisoner. So, if you have an ideas I would honestly appreciate if you shared them. Also, I only said they should pull one role from Coven, not start a pattern of doing so.

Arsonist Overhaul

From my understanding, this overhaul allows the following possibilities:

Possibility 1: Using 2 douse charges to douse people, then using the 3rd to ignite, allowing you to kill 2 people per night.

This alone is pretty powerful. It basically allows the Arsonist to become a Serial Killer who can kill two people per night with an even higher attack level.

Possibility 2: Dousing 3 people per night for 2 nights, then on night 3, dousing 2 people and using the 3rd charge to ignite, so when night 3 ends 8 people could have been potentially killed (assuming they weren't killed before that).

This could basically end the game in 3 nights.

[DragonClaw66]

A: Removing roles from the game is not something I will ever agree with. Difficult as it may be, Arsonist is a fun role, especially in all any when multiple arsos can spawn. Arso just needs a few more tweaks to give it a fairer chance at winning, but it's not completely garbage that should be trashed. No role is on that level.

B: Juggernaut is a selling point for Coven, all of the exclusive roles are. I do believe that if you start pulling roles from Coven for the main game, the hype of buying Coven continues to go down and it will be less profitable.

/nosupport

What Arsonist tweaks would you make? I have thought long and hard on this and have come up with nothing except reworking it to be similar to Poisoner. So, if you have an ideas I would honestly appreciate if you shared them. Also, I only said they should pull one role from Coven, not start a pattern of doing so.

Arsonist Overhaul

From my understanding, this overhaul allows the following possibilities:

Possibility 1: Using 2 douse charges to douse people, then using the 3rd to ignite, allowing you to kill 2 people per night.

This alone is pretty powerful. It basically allows the Arsonist to become a Serial Killer who can kill two people per night with an even higher attack level.

Possibility 2: Dousing 3 people per night for 2 nights, then on night 3, dousing 2 people and using the 3rd charge to ignite, so when night 3 ends 8 people could have been potentially killed (assuming they weren't killed before that).

This could basically end the game in 3 nights.

You've got it wrong. This is a gameplay scenario of the overhauled Arsonist:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N1: You have 1 douse charge remaining. You have decided to douse the Medium.
D2: ---
N2: You have 1 douse charge remaining. You have decided to douse the Mafioso.
D3: ---
N3: You have 1 douse charge remaining. You have been hauled off to jail.
D4: ---
N4: You have 2 douse charges remaining. You have decided to douse the Sheriff and Investigator.
D5: The Sheriff was killed by a member of the Mafia. You have gained a douse charge.
N5: You have 2 douse charges remaining. You have decided to douse the Forger and ignite. The Medium, Mafioso, Investigator, and Forger are dead.

[rushofpower]

I honestly find Arsonist the easiest of the three NKs, mainly because I’m good at it and my Investigator claim is very believeable most of the time. Not just that but it doesn’t have to worry about TP and can be devastating if you’re good at predicting who will die. I think it’s a good role but with a high skill cap compared to the others, SK in particular.

You cant honestly find it easier when its SO easy to foil compared to other NKs?

If there is an escort (or consort) in game, they can RB the arso all game so he can be basically be nullified. Unlike SK and WW who will maul the said roleblocker, the arso is dormant.

Arso can get jailed all game with no repercussions for town, unlike WW and SK who can kill the jailor.

Another dream-like scenario-Arso douses N1 an investigator, N2 a sheriff and N3 a spy perfectly---oh wait by then 2/3 mafia is dead, NE is exed and the other 2 mafia are about to be killed. Even if you ignite, town has gathered enough information by Day 4 to kill and know whos who due to the TI of the town. If you had been SK or WW however, instead of dousing you could of shut them up earlier and prevented any information being presented to town and ensured evils having more longevity.
Arso, unlike other NKs, largely relies on NE and mafia to help as well. This is NOT good, at all and should not be the case. Yes, SK and WW also need mafia but not the extent arso does.


I won't even bother getting into an argument about "predicting who maf will kill" because there are way too many points that im sure you know can counter it. Arso is just a complete mess

[kyuss420]

Ive won many an arsonist game with only 1 or 2 douses.

But I agree with Juggernaut gaining an investigative result and being rolled more often (150 Jugg scrolls and only rolled him 7 times, twice in the same day 2 times)

[goldtrotter]

A: Removing roles from the game is not something I will ever agree with. Difficult as it may be, Arsonist is a fun role, especially in all any when multiple arsos can spawn. Arso just needs a few more tweaks to give it a fairer chance at winning, but it's not completely garbage that should be trashed. No role is on that level.

B: Juggernaut is a selling point for Coven, all of the exclusive roles are. I do believe that if you start pulling roles from Coven for the main game, the hype of buying Coven continues to go down and it will be less profitable.

/nosupport

What Arsonist tweaks would you make? I have thought long and hard on this and have come up with nothing except reworking it to be similar to Poisoner. So, if you have an ideas I would honestly appreciate if you shared them. Also, I only said they should pull one role from Coven, not start a pattern of doing so.

Arsonist Overhaul

From my understanding, this overhaul allows the following possibilities:

Possibility 1: Using 2 douse charges to douse people, then using the 3rd to ignite, allowing you to kill 2 people per night.

This alone is pretty powerful. It basically allows the Arsonist to become a Serial Killer who can kill two people per night with an even higher attack level.

Possibility 2: Dousing 3 people per night for 2 nights, then on night 3, dousing 2 people and using the 3rd charge to ignite, so when night 3 ends 8 people could have been potentially killed (assuming they weren't killed before that).

This could basically end the game in 3 nights.

You've got it wrong. This is a gameplay scenario of the overhauled Arsonist:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N1: You have 1 douse charge remaining. You have decided to douse the Medium.
D2: ---
N2: You have 1 douse charge remaining. You have decided to douse the Mafioso.
D3: ---
N3: You have 1 douse charge remaining. You have been hauled off to jail.
D4: ---
N4: You have 2 douse charges remaining. You have decided to douse the Sheriff and Investigator.
D5: The Sheriff was killed by a member of the Mafia. You have gained a douse charge.
N5: You have 2 douse charges remaining. You have decided to douse the Forger and ignite. The Medium, Mafioso, Investigator, and Forger are dead.

Oh I see. So this does solve a major problem Arsonist has, their targets dying of other means. However, if this was implemented none of the other buffs should be removed because even with this, Arsonist still has a few problems besides their targets dying which rushofpower described in a few posts above.

However, are you saying the Arsonist chooses roles to douse and not people? Or were you just saying that for the sake of explaining the rework?

[DragonClaw66]

Spoiler:

A: Removing roles from the game is not something I will ever agree with. Difficult as it may be, Arsonist is a fun role, especially in all any when multiple arsos can spawn. Arso just needs a few more tweaks to give it a fairer chance at winning, but it's not completely garbage that should be trashed. No role is on that level.

B: Juggernaut is a selling point for Coven, all of the exclusive roles are. I do believe that if you start pulling roles from Coven for the main game, the hype of buying Coven continues to go down and it will be less profitable.

/nosupport

What Arsonist tweaks would you make? I have thought long and hard on this and have come up with nothing except reworking it to be similar to Poisoner. So, if you have an ideas I would honestly appreciate if you shared them. Also, I only said they should pull one role from Coven, not start a pattern of doing so.

Arsonist Overhaul

From my understanding, this overhaul allows the following possibilities:

Possibility 1: Using 2 douse charges to douse people, then using the 3rd to ignite, allowing you to kill 2 people per night.

This alone is pretty powerful. It basically allows the Arsonist to become a Serial Killer who can kill two people per night with an even higher attack level.

Possibility 2: Dousing 3 people per night for 2 nights, then on night 3, dousing 2 people and using the 3rd charge to ignite, so when night 3 ends 8 people could have been potentially killed (assuming they weren't killed before that).

This could basically end the game in 3 nights.

You've got it wrong. This is a gameplay scenario of the overhauled Arsonist:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N1: You have 1 douse charge remaining. You have decided to douse the Medium.
D2: ---
N2: You have 1 douse charge remaining. You have decided to douse the Mafioso.
D3: ---
N3: You have 1 douse charge remaining. You have been hauled off to jail.
D4: ---
N4: You have 2 douse charges remaining. You have decided to douse the Sheriff and Investigator.
D5: The Sheriff was killed by a member of the Mafia. You have gained a douse charge.
N5: You have 2 douse charges remaining. You have decided to douse the Forger and ignite. The Medium, Mafioso, Investigator, and Forger are dead.

Oh I see. So this does solve a major problem Arsonist has, their targets dying of other means. However, if this was implemented none of the other buffs should be removed because even with this, Arsonist still has a few problems besides their targets dying which rushofpower described in a few posts above.

However, are you saying the Arsonist chooses roles to douse and not people? Or were you just saying that for the sake of explaining the rework?

For the sake of explaining the rework.

[StrahmDude]

Letting the arso kill someone almost every day is not the fix that is needed. At that point it becomes a more powerful sk, why? UNSTOPPABLE attacks. Also bypassing heals. Arsonist just need more power with what it can pull off, like dousing someone twice to kill everyone who visits, or maybe the flames burn up their wills and make the unidentifiable? There are other changes to be made that can make the arsonist a lot more powerful and fun role other than making them able to kill more.

[goldtrotter]

Hey guys, I came up with something that would appear to solve all the problems mentioned in the thread.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=94560&p=3034076#p3034076

[Mathelete]

I would support this only if they implement the juggernaut change I recommend (that juggernaut always has basic defense rather than being defenseless for 3 nights)

[beybeykess]

juggernaut > arsonist

I would prefer arsonist in classic to be honest especially in ranked. It would make the games more interesting and wouldn't make nk as boring. Also Pestilence in normal town of salem would be cool too.