Change mafia promotions

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Change mafia promotions

Postby Sonicle » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:12 pm

Essentially when the godfather/Mafioso are dead a random mafia will be promoted to Mafioso.

I think it would be better if the mafia could "choose" who would become the new Mafioso during the next day via the sun icon. Ie this will prevent a powerful role like the consort being chosen over a framer/forger etc.

This would be a small buff for when the mafia are at their weakest; 2 players.

I've played too many games where the consort/janitor/bmer has been promoted at a crucial time and mafia have lost to what id call rng (who joined first etc)
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Phone0Ix » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:13 am

Sonicle wrote:Essentially when the godfather/Mafioso are dead a random mafia will be promoted to Mafioso.

I think it would be better if the mafia could "choose" who would become the new Mafioso during the next day via the sun icon. Ie this will prevent a powerful role like the consort being chosen over a framer/forger etc.

This would be a small buff for when the mafia are at their weakest; 2 players.

I've played too many games where the consort/janitor/bmer has been promoted at a crucial time and mafia have lost to what id call rng (who joined first etc)

Question, what if the mafia is too late with choosing who turns? And who would select the person, the dead Mafioso?
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Supertcgamer » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:36 am

Phone0Ix wrote:
Sonicle wrote:Essentially when the godfather/Mafioso are dead a random mafia will be promoted to Mafioso.

I think it would be better if the mafia could "choose" who would become the new Mafioso during the next day via the sun icon. Ie this will prevent a powerful role like the consort being chosen over a framer/forger etc.

This would be a small buff for when the mafia are at their weakest; 2 players.

I've played too many games where the consort/janitor/bmer has been promoted at a crucial time and mafia have lost to what id call rng (who joined first etc)

Question, what if the mafia is too late with choosing who turns? And who would select the person, the dead Mafioso?


The game will choose for you then, no need to rid the mechanic entirely.
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Sonicle » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:42 am

Phone0Ix wrote:Question, what if the mafia is too late with choosing who turns? And who would select the person, the dead Mafioso?


If the mafia doesn't choose, it will choose randomly
The mafia during the day will choose who will become the next mafioso via a sun icon or a mafia themed icon. There are multiple ways this can be implemented, but I think the simplest solution would be for when a player clicks that icon, the mafia will be informed that such and such is "stepping forward" to lead the crime family so to speak. Preferably, I'd like an option that players can choose to prevent their role from being randomly selected.
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Yokujin » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:12 pm

but how can we prevent infighting?

promotion messages only visible by the mafia:
disg: *select sun icon* "disg assumes the role of mafioso next night"
consort: *select sun icon* "consort assumes the role of mafioso next night" (no me!)
full janitor: *select sun icon* "janitor assumes the role of mafioso next night" (ME!ME!ME!)
disg: *select sun icon* "disg assumes the role of mafioso next night" (stop it my role is the worst)
consort: *select sun icon* "consort assumes the role of mafioso next night"
full janitor: *select sun icon* "janitor assumes the role of mafioso next night"
consort: *select sun icon* "consort assumes the role of mafioso next night"
full janitor: *select sun icon* "janitor assumes the role of mafioso next night"
consort: *select sun icon* "consort assumes the role of mafioso next night"
full janitor: *select sun icon* "janitor assumes the role of mafioso next night"

whispering is impossible, everyone would more or less figure out what is going on

tbh every kid out there is like: "I WANNA KILL LEMME BE MAF!"

actually i have 2 alternate examples how we can manage promotions better:
mafia will promote the same way coven manages the neconomicon; by rank

Godfather
Mafioso
Janitor 0 charges
Forger 0 charges
Disguiser
Consigilere
Framer
Consort
Blackmailer
Hypnotist
Ambusher
Janitor 1+ charges
Forger 1+ charges

or: the highest ranking mafia member (GF or mafioso) can manage the promotion roadmap at any time
example:

mafioso -
janitor 3
disg 1
framer 2
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Sonicle » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:16 pm

Yokujin wrote:but how can we prevent infighting?


By making mafia actually fun to play.

Yokujin wrote:tbh every kid out there is like: "I WANNA KILL LEMME BE MAF!"


Sure we're playing the same game lol?

In all serious though, I think keeping it a simple is the best thing to do, Mafia can talk n1 to decide who will take the mantle of mafioso and leave it up to them. They have that initial first night to plan and besides, most of the time it should be pretty obvious what role should be the one to become mafioso.

The reason why I don't suggest having it a roadmap is:
a- Games are flexible, what might have made sense one night ago, might be a very bad idea a round later
b- If the player in charge leaves etc, then you're stuck with their decision or without a decision being made, which will revert to random (removing the choice)
c- In custom games/All etc, there is no guarantee of a godfather to oversee those types of decisions

The thing is, you're right, this will inevitably lead to ingame fighting at some point but in most of the cases it should be fairly straight forward, there are roles that are weaker than others and in certain gamemodes almost useless. (I play alot of all random, which is why I came up with this idea, lost too many consorts when forgers/disguisers/framers were alive) You'll probably only ever see fighting in the lower tiers.

Unless coven has changed since the last time I played it, doesn't the Nemonomicron pass down randomly? It's this randomly element I'm looking to remove from the game (atleast, for the mafia atleast.
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Yokujin » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:53 am

Sonicle wrote:
Yokujin wrote:but how can we prevent infighting?


By making mafia actually fun to play.

Yokujin wrote:tbh every kid out there is like: "I WANNA KILL LEMME BE MAF!"


Sure we're playing the same game lol?

In all serious though, I think keeping it a simple is the best thing to do, Mafia can talk n1 to decide who will take the mantle of mafioso and leave it up to them. They have that initial first night to plan and besides, most of the time it should be pretty obvious what role should be the one to become mafioso.

The reason why I don't suggest having it a roadmap is:
a- Games are flexible, what might have made sense one night ago, might be a very bad idea a round later
b- If the player in charge leaves etc, then you're stuck with their decision or without a decision being made, which will revert to random (removing the choice)
c- In custom games/All etc, there is no guarantee of a godfather to oversee those types of decisions

The thing is, you're right, this will inevitably lead to ingame fighting at some point but in most of the cases it should be fairly straight forward, there are roles that are weaker than others and in certain gamemodes almost useless. (I play alot of all random, which is why I came up with this idea, lost too many consorts when forgers/disguisers/framers were alive) You'll probably only ever see fighting in the lower tiers.

Unless coven has changed since the last time I played it, doesn't the Nemonomicron pass down randomly? It's this randomly element I'm looking to remove from the game (atleast, for the mafia atleast.


a GF isnt needed to "oversee" who gets promoted next, just the highest ranking one; mafioso if gf doesnt exist
"road map" is like making a custom order instead randomized
if you see 2 disg and 1 consort: you decide to promote disg, disg then consort after you died, next mafioso may change the order

if no input is made the ranking will be used (weakest link first) and no necro passing isnt random:
(The order of transition is Coven Leader, Necromancer, Hex Master, Potion Master, Medusa, Poisoner [but as of now this order is unconfirmed]. The order does not follow by who joined the lobby first [also unconfirmed].) - wiki
Last edited by Yokujin on Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby MoustachioMario » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:45 am

What if there are 2 disg who step forward to kill?
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Sonicle » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:26 pm

Yokujin wrote:a GF isnt needed to "oversee" who gets promoted next, just the highest ranking one; mafioso if gf doesnt exist
"road map" is like making a custom order instead randomized
if you see 2 disg and 1 consort: you decide to promote disg, disg then consort after you died, next mafioso may change the order

if no input is made the ranking will me used (weakest link first) and no necro passing isnt random:
(The order of transition is Coven Leader, Necromancer, Hex Master, Potion Master, Medusa, Poisoner [but as of now this order is unconfirmed]. The order does not follow by who joined the lobby first [also unconfirmed].) - wiki


To be honest, I feel that's a little too much work and I'm really against the idea of having someone else dictate who will become the next mafioso.

I haven't played enough of the coven gamemode, I just read the wiki on it and back then it said it was randomly passed down, cheers.
MoustachioMario wrote:What if there are 2 disg who step forward to kill?


Randomly pick between them. A second click to the icon can remove your name being put forward for the role, incase you realise too late it might be better for someone else to take it, you can withdraw your own vote.
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Yokujin » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:16 pm

Sonicle wrote:
Yokujin wrote:a GF isnt needed to "oversee" who gets promoted next, just the highest ranking one; mafioso if gf doesnt exist
"road map" is like making a custom order instead randomized
if you see 2 disg and 1 consort: you decide to promote disg, disg then consort after you died, next mafioso may change the order

if no input is made the ranking will me used (weakest link first) and no necro passing isnt random:
(The order of transition is Coven Leader, Necromancer, Hex Master, Potion Master, Medusa, Poisoner [but as of now this order is unconfirmed]. The order does not follow by who joined the lobby first [also unconfirmed].) - wiki


To be honest, I feel that's a little too much work and I'm really against the idea of having someone else dictate who will become the next mafioso.

I haven't played enough of the coven gamemode, I just read the wiki on it and back then it said it was randomly passed down, cheers.
MoustachioMario wrote:What if there are 2 disg who step forward to kill?


Randomly pick between them. A second click to the icon can remove your name being put forward for the role, incase you realise too late it might be better for someone else to take it, you can withdraw your own vote.

but instead you prefer the system randomly dictating against your hopes and wishes and royally ruining your plans
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Sonicle » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:05 pm

My friend, if you're playing in a high rank team, it should be pretty obvious who should step forward as the next mafioso, and no, i don't like the random system hence why I came up with the OP
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby shapesifter13 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:30 pm

It might possibly be better to have an established priority system. There will be times even the priority is wrong due to any number of factors, but it may be a good starting point for further improvements.

Thoughts?
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Yokujin » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:37 am

shapesifter13 wrote:It might possibly be better to have an established priority system. There will be times even the priority is wrong due to any number of factors, but it may be a good starting point for further improvements.

Thoughts?


i have posted a list how the priority can be listed:

top priority:
Godfather
Mafioso
Janitor 0 charges
Forger 0 charges
Disguiser

grey area:
Consigilere
Framer
Consort
Blackmailer
Hypnotist

lowest priority:
Ambusher
Janitor 1+ charges
Forger 1+ charges
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Phone0Ix » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:03 pm

Yokujin wrote:
shapesifter13 wrote:It might possibly be better to have an established priority system. There will be times even the priority is wrong due to any number of factors, but it may be a good starting point for further improvements.

Thoughts?


i have posted a list how the priority can be listed:

top priority:
Godfather
Mafioso
Janitor 0 charges
Forger 0 charges
Disguiser

grey area:
Consigilere
Framer
Consort
Blackmailer
Hypnotist

lowest priority:
Ambusher
Janitor 1+ charges
Forger 1+ charges

I suggest consig in low and bm'r in top
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Yokujin » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:13 pm

Phone0Ix wrote:
Yokujin wrote:
shapesifter13 wrote:It might possibly be better to have an established priority system. There will be times even the priority is wrong due to any number of factors, but it may be a good starting point for further improvements.

Thoughts?


i have posted a list how the priority can be listed:

top priority:
Godfather
Mafioso
Janitor 0 charges
Forger 0 charges
Disguiser

grey area:
Consigilere
Framer
Consort
Blackmailer
Hypnotist

lowest priority:
Ambusher
Janitor 1+ charges
Forger 1+ charges

I suggest consig in low and bm'r in top

shrugs
its the grey area
anything in here can be higher or lower on the prio depending on
-person
-play style
-opinions
-favorites
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Phone0Ix » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:30 am

Yokujin wrote:
Phone0Ix wrote:
Yokujin wrote:
shapesifter13 wrote:It might possibly be better to have an established priority system. There will be times even the priority is wrong due to any number of factors, but it may be a good starting point for further improvements.

Thoughts?


i have posted a list how the priority can be listed:

top priority:
Godfather
Mafioso
Janitor 0 charges
Forger 0 charges
Disguiser

grey area:
Consigilere
Framer
Consort
Blackmailer
Hypnotist

lowest priority:
Ambusher
Janitor 1+ charges
Forger 1+ charges

I suggest consig in low and bm'r in top

shrugs
its the grey area
anything in here can be higher or lower on the prio depending on
-person
-play style
-opinions
-favorites

You can also say the same thing with Amb, Janitor and Forger with charges and Disguiser. Maybe there is a player that is either noob in the first 3 or pro in the last one. So that's a bad argument... Consigliere is a very good role and it possibly chosen over Blackmailer is rlly change. Blackmailer rarely does things these days.
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Yokujin » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:02 am

Phone0Ix wrote:
Yokujin wrote:
Phone0Ix wrote:
Yokujin wrote:
shapesifter13 wrote:It might possibly be better to have an established priority system. There will be times even the priority is wrong due to any number of factors, but it may be a good starting point for further improvements.

Thoughts?


i have posted a list how the priority can be listed:

top priority:
Godfather
Mafioso
Janitor 0 charges
Forger 0 charges
Disguiser

grey area:
Consigilere
Framer
Consort
Blackmailer
Hypnotist

lowest priority:
Ambusher
Janitor 1+ charges
Forger 1+ charges

I suggest consig in low and bm'r in top

shrugs
its the grey area
anything in here can be higher or lower on the prio depending on
-person
-play style
-opinions
-favorites

You can also say the same thing with Amb, Janitor and Forger with charges and Disguiser. Maybe there is a player that is either noob in the first 3 or pro in the last one. So that's a bad argument... Consigliere is a very good role and it possibly chosen over Blackmailer is rlly change. Blackmailer rarely does things these days.

nope
ambusher has lowest prio because he can kill and is always useful but usually never survives long enough to to be promoted
before janitor and forger should use up their charges and usefulness as their roles before promoting
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Phone0Ix » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:29 am

Yokujin wrote:
Phone0Ix wrote:
Yokujin wrote:
Phone0Ix wrote:
Yokujin wrote:
shapesifter13 wrote:It might possibly be better to have an established priority system. There will be times even the priority is wrong due to any number of factors, but it may be a good starting point for further improvements.

Thoughts?


i have posted a list how the priority can be listed:

top priority:
Godfather
Mafioso
Janitor 0 charges
Forger 0 charges
Disguiser

grey area:
Consigilere
Framer
Consort
Blackmailer
Hypnotist

lowest priority:
Ambusher
Janitor 1+ charges
Forger 1+ charges

I suggest consig in low and bm'r in top

shrugs
its the grey area
anything in here can be higher or lower on the prio depending on
-person
-play style
-opinions
-favorites

You can also say the same thing with Amb, Janitor and Forger with charges and Disguiser. Maybe there is a player that is either noob in the first 3 or pro in the last one. So that's a bad argument... Consigliere is a very good role and it possibly chosen over Blackmailer is rlly change. Blackmailer rarely does things these days.

nope
ambusher has lowest prio because he can kill and is always useful but usually never survives long enough to to be promoted
before janitor and forger should use up their charges and usefulness as their roles before promoting

But if they get there... Why couldn't Consig get in low priority?
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Sonicle » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:36 pm

I've played too many games where the consort/janitor/bmer has been promoted at a crucial time and mafia have lost to what id call rng (who joined first etc)


This is why a priority system will fail, just let the players decide.
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby shapesifter13 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:32 pm

Letting the players decide isn't necessarily the best either. If you don't want to be promoted, but are forced to be, then that isn't a good experience.
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Yokujin » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:48 pm

shapesifter13 wrote:Letting the players decide isn't necessarily the best either. If you don't want to be promoted, but are forced to be, then that isn't a good experience.

random promotions backfire
some want to select promotions themselves
some are against making the mechanics complicated
some arent happy with several priorities being suggested

we are just running around in circles
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:34 pm

Yokujin wrote:
shapesifter13 wrote:Letting the players decide isn't necessarily the best either. If you don't want to be promoted, but are forced to be, then that isn't a good experience.
random promotions backfire
some want to select promotions themselves
some are against making the mechanics complicated
some arent happy with several priorities being suggested

we are just running around in circles
I think this is what people call "letting perfect be the enemy of good". No system for choosing the new Mafioso will be perfect, but certainly, letting the Mafia have some say in who gets converted is better than pure, merciless RNG.
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby shapesifter13 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:48 pm

Maybe it should be more like a volunteer system. You as the Framer can select to be the first promoted, otherwise it follows some priority. This way the players that want to be promoted, or players that feel their currently role is the least powerful in that situation can make the decision.
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby Yokujin » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:39 am

shapesifter13 wrote:Maybe it should be more like a volunteer system. You as the Framer can select to be the first promoted, otherwise it follows some priority. This way the players that want to be promoted, or players that feel their currently role is the least powerful in that situation can make the decision.

this may have the issue with "let me!" infights, 2 or more people wanting to play mafioso just because they wanna kill
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Re: Change mafia promotions

Postby shapesifter13 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:15 pm

Wanting to be something, and not getting it, I would imagine, feels better than not wanting to be something, and being forced to become it though.
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