State of Ranked

Announcements made here about the game and the company.

State of Ranked

Postby shapesifter13 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:47 pm

Hey everyone,

We recently fixed a bug in our ranked Elo algorithm that was unfairly taking away Elo from lower ranked players. This change has also created a scenario where our highest Elo players will, statistically speaking, only lose Elo in the long run until things balance out. We realize this creates an unfair scenario for the high ranking players and gives them little reason to continue playing ranked. We hear your worries and have come up with a solution that will hopefully please everyone. It would be unfair of us to revert the bug fix back to the old system because it punishes lower Elo players so we think the best solution is to announce the coming Ranked patch and we will lock Elo ahead of schedule for the end of what we will call "Legacy Season" .

On June 20th all Elo will be locked in place for the end of Legacy Season. We will be giving out Legacy Season rewards depending on your Elo bracket. Ranked will then go into a temporary off season as we adjust the ranked role list, reset Elo and prepare for Season 1. Once Elo has been reset we believe the fixed algorithm will feel much better for all playing ranked matches. Additionally we will be keeping track of Career high Elo, Current Season High Elo and Current Elo. Match making will be done on current Elo but Season 1 rewards will be based on your Current Season Highest Elo.

For those of you who want to get to a higher Elo before the end of Legacy Season you have 2 weeks to grind it out! And for the high Elo players who don't want to drop Elo we hope that waiting 2 weeks for the end of Legacy Season is an acceptable solution.

Thank you everyone for your patience, suggestions and commitment to Town of Salem!

Check out the original post here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=68490
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby Galaktik » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:01 pm

Should still balance out the current elo ranges, there should never really be any situation in which someone earns +1 for a NK, NE, or mafia win, nor should a player ever be expected for his faction to win 94% of town games or 88% of mafia games to advance as it is with the current system if you are at the upper end of the elo range (gaining +1 for a win and losing -7 / -14 for a mafia/town loss).
I go by Deodat Lawson and Samuel Parris in ranked. Say hey if you see me! :)
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby Gracee » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:29 pm

I understand that this is as good as it's going to get, you scheduling the upcoming new ranked format a bit earlier. And I hope that most of the players will feel happy that atleast something came out of all of this.
With that said.. You're asking the most active players in Town of Salem, to not play for 2 weeks. And not only are you saying that, but it sounds like you actually think that this is something that's ok to do. Lets sum up this whole thing.
1. You break the game for everyone above 2.2k elo.
2. You ask everyone above 2.2k elo to still play the game, with the mission to lose as much elo as possible to "adjust" your ranked system.
3. You then ask all regulars to not play for 2 weeks, so that the lower elo-bracket can catch up in time for the new seasons.

Also, what will happen at the start of every season? Because it sounds like you're going to hardreset everyone. If this is your intention: How do you think the games will be the first weeks every season? There are players who legit deserve to be sub 1000 elo for a reason, these players will queue up with players who are deservingly above 2.5-3k elo.
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby Kyrah » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:39 pm

Sooo.. you're telling us in order to preserve our current elo, we don't queue until after the off season. I didn't even try to play ranked today. Played a couple custom games that were total trash... *cringe*

This isn't exactly the solution I was hoping for since I like playing with the other high ELO players, but I suppose it is better than quitting the game. Honestly, I think people will be off playing The Coven instead of joing the ranked queue so it is too little too late.
Last edited by Kyrah on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby Kmenx » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:47 pm

ALSO I AM DIAMOND 1 BOIS
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby Swordsworth » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:48 pm

Kmenx wrote:ALSO I AM DIAMOND 1 BOIS


I guess that makes me Wood 5
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby Kmenx » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:51 pm

Swordsworth wrote:
Kmenx wrote:ALSO I AM DIAMOND 1 BOIS


I guess that makes me Wood 5


What did you said about my ELO you little bitch?I'll have you know I graduated in the top of my ToS ELO class.I have been involved in over 700 games on ToS and I have 650 CONFIRMED wins.
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby melanora » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:15 am

I'm reporting all of you. Nelly is going to rise from her grave and backhand you all.
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:17 am

melanora wrote:I'm reporting all of you. Nelly is going to rise from her grave and backhand you all.

We actually all got a talking to from Naru and Jerme :P
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: State of Ranked

Postby melanora » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:24 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:
melanora wrote:I'm reporting all of you. Nelly is going to rise from her grave and backhand you all.

We actually all got a talking to from Naru and Jerme :P


Since you can still post here, they went easy on you.
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:26 am

melanora wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:
melanora wrote:I'm reporting all of you. Nelly is going to rise from her grave and backhand you all.

We actually all got a talking to from Naru and Jerme :P


Since you can still post here, they went easy on you.

To be fair, none of us are problem users or anything. :P

I'm just happy that we're finally moving into actual seasons! :D
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby LevinSnakesRise » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:40 am

Moderator Message: Friendly reminder to everyone about the spam rule. Some of you are even FM Moderators for crying out loud, and everyone who did post that little copy-paste are all users who know better.
Please contact BMG with any questions regarding your account issues;
support@blankmediagames.zendesk.com

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Re: State of Ranked

Postby IAmAMunchlax » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:19 am

I didn't get a talk, my mod bias is making a comeback boys.
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby DBrock01 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:43 am

Pretty close to ideal, though I would prefer 1 week instead of 2 weeks. We don't know what the cutoffs for rewards are going to be, so there aren't exactly people trying to grind for rewards at the moment.
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby tazar » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:04 am

Developers are blind and deaf to hear what the experienced players are trying to say.
They have literally zero idea how their game works you can see by their clueless posts.
They are trying to push their half-arsed bug fix of a bug that never existed in the first place.
Instead of listening to what the community wants they push this.. whatever this abomination is.
But sure go ahead keep listening to players with a hundred games instead of the ones with thousands of games played.
I'll watch and laugh when you realize your new system fails miserably because problems will worsen as time goes on.

Just an example:
Everyone who drops to 1k elo will get matched with 0 elo players and since ur 1k elo above em u will keep losing till you go all the way down. No way getting out of elo hell with your GREAT NEW SYSTEM.
High elos will queue at the same time and will inflate eachothers elo(bcuz of discord queues) to the point where they are impossible to catch up to.

But actually im not sure if there will be a discord queue because a few people are dumb enough to start grinding elo all over again.
So good luck finding idiots to play ranked and keep ruining your game you are doing an awesome job.
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby rickms » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:31 pm

tazar wrote:Developers are blind and deaf to hear what the experienced players are trying to say.

We are listening to every word. Not agreeing with you does not mean we are not listening.

They have literally zero idea how their game works you can see by their clueless posts.
They are trying to push their half-arsed bug fix of a bug that never existed in the first place.


ELO is a thing. It has math behind it. Our implementation of the ELO algorithm was wrong. So to say there was never a bug in the first place is factually incorrect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

Instead of listening to what the community wants they push this.. whatever this abomination is.
But sure go ahead keep listening to players with a hundred games instead of the ones with thousands of games played.
I'll watch and laugh when you realize your new system fails miserably because problems will worsen as time goes on.


We have a responsibility to all players to create an enjoyable and fair ranked system, not just the < 1% of players that are 2k+

Just an example:
Everyone who drops to 1k elo will get matched with 0 elo players and since ur 1k elo above em u will keep losing till you go all the way down. No way getting out of elo hell with your GREAT NEW SYSTEM.


The bug is what created 0 and very low ELO players to begin with. The ELO calculation for the losing players was broken. It was subtracting too much for low ELO players and too little for high ELO players. This fix should prevent anyone from getting to extremely low ELOs, thus impacting those queued with them less.

High elos will queue at the same time and will inflate eachothers elo(bcuz of discord queues) to the point where they are impossible to catch up to.


If the ELO system is working correctly then this should lead to high elo players being evenly matched, with the cream of the crop rising to the top.

But actually im not sure if there will be a discord queue because a few people are dumb enough to start grinding elo all over again.


Fundamental misunderstanding of ELO. You should NOT be able to grind it. That's not the intent of any rating system. Playing more should not, inherently raise your ELO. Beating evenly matched/better opponents should.

If you were say 2200 as town and lost to 1800 average opponents. Then again at 2200 as town and won against 1800 average opponents. As it was before the net change for the 2200 team and 1800 team was 0. This is incorrect ELO calculation. The 2200 team should have lost ELO. They drew a 2 game series against an inferior opponent. The 1800 team should have gained because they drew against a superior opponent.

2k + users had minimal risk in losing ELO to lower ranked players before, with that lower ranked user facing large losses if they lost to that same team.

So good luck finding idiots to play ranked and keep ruining your game you are doing an awesome job.


Please keep it constructive.
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby Tigerleap » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:41 pm

We will be giving out Legacy Season rewards depending on your Elo bracket.

Which brackets are going to be receiving rewards? I currently sit at a fairly low ELO of just over 1300, but I know for a fact that I can make it to 1400 by the end of the Legacy season, maybe even 1500. I just want to know if it's worth pushing just before the end of the season.

I'm really excited for the new Ranked changes since it's clear that the current ELO system doesn't work. My ELO is not all that impressive, but I've seen my fair share of incompetent players recently. Hopefully I'll be faced against more experienced players once the ELO is fixed.

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Re: State of Ranked

Postby WittyRecluse » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:21 pm

rickms wrote:
tazar wrote:Developers are blind and deaf to hear what the experienced players are trying to say.

We are listening to every word. Not agreeing with you does not mean we are not listening.

They have literally zero idea how their game works you can see by their clueless posts.
They are trying to push their half-arsed bug fix of a bug that never existed in the first place.


ELO is a thing. It has math behind it. Our implementation of the ELO algorithm was wrong. So to say there was never a bug in the first place is factually incorrect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

Instead of listening to what the community wants they push this.. whatever this abomination is.
But sure go ahead keep listening to players with a hundred games instead of the ones with thousands of games played.
I'll watch and laugh when you realize your new system fails miserably because problems will worsen as time goes on.


We have a responsibility to all players to create an enjoyable and fair ranked system, not just the < 1% of players that are 2k+

Just an example:
Everyone who drops to 1k elo will get matched with 0 elo players and since ur 1k elo above em u will keep losing till you go all the way down. No way getting out of elo hell with your GREAT NEW SYSTEM.


The bug is what created 0 and very low ELO players to begin with. The ELO calculation for the losing players was broken. It was subtracting too much for low ELO players and too little for high ELO players. This fix should prevent anyone from getting to extremely low ELOs, thus impacting those queued with them less.

High elos will queue at the same time and will inflate eachothers elo(bcuz of discord queues) to the point where they are impossible to catch up to.


If the ELO system is working correctly then this should lead to high elo players being evenly matched, with the cream of the crop rising to the top.

But actually im not sure if there will be a discord queue because a few people are dumb enough to start grinding elo all over again.


Fundamental misunderstanding of ELO. You should NOT be able to grind it. That's not the intent of any rating system. Playing more should not, inherently raise your ELO. Beating evenly matched/better opponents should.

If you were say 2200 as town and lost to 1800 average opponents. Then again at 2200 as town and won against 1800 average opponents. As it was before the net change for the 2200 team and 1800 team was 0. This is incorrect ELO calculation. The 2200 team should have lost ELO. They drew a 2 game series against an inferior opponent. The 1800 team should have gained because they drew against a superior opponent.

2k + users had minimal risk in losing ELO to lower ranked players before, with that lower ranked user facing large losses if they lost to that same team.

So good luck finding idiots to play ranked and keep ruining your game you are doing an awesome job.


Please keep it constructive.

Galaktik already explained why this system doesn't work. The game has too much luck involved to be able to expect someone to win every single game. And when you get -12 as surv for getting rbed and killed n2, knowing that it's impossible to regain that elo because every win is +1, you know that the system doesn't work.

Under the old system, town losses were more of an elo loss than town wins, as they should be. Having an above average winrate will cause your elo to increase, as it should, and having a below average one causes it to decrease. The required winrates, and the pace of climbing (if you even continue climbing at all, there's plenty of top people who were unable to pass a certain elo bracket even with 10,000 games) slow down significantly at the top where wins are all +1 and losses are -1 or more.

If you're going to implement this elo system change, then at the very least wait until the elo reset to do it and revert the system in the meantime, because it's obvious that it doesn't work for high elos under the current distribution. Average people are COMPLETELY unaffected because they will be queued with people of around their elo every game so they get similar gains and losses regardless of who they're matched with.

Also it's worth noting that a faction's elo will usually be offset by mostly one person, which is another reason why factoring in the players' elo so much doesn't work.
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby Swordsworth » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:29 pm

2 year preseason PogChamp?
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:37 pm

Also, can BMG release the new algorithm? I'm just curious about the math behind it.
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby rickms » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:21 pm

alex1234321 wrote:Also, can BMG release the new algorithm? I'm just curious about the math behind it.


We take your teams average ELO vs your "Opponents" ELO.

For example, say you are playing as town:

"Town's ELO Average" vs "Mafia + Arsonist + SK + Witch + Executioner"

We then apply the ELO algorithm to determine the weight of the change. This is what was fixed. Our implementation had a miscalculation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

We use a fixed K-factor of 25. So +/- 25 is the theoretical max you should win/lose.

HOWEVER

We then take that result and apply a modifier based on what role you played and how often it tends to win/lose. So in the above example, if the Town Won, the Mafia, and SK would lose different amounts of ELO because SK tends to lose more often than Mafia.

Because of this the most you can win or lose is much less than 25. (except when we screw up the vampire). It's more like ~12

Finally, we've found 0 elo change to be lame, so you will always win/lose a minimum of 1 ELO.

Note: We will most likely be refining this further in the ranked update coming this summer. This may or may not include a staggered K-factor so the higher rankings don't have as large a swing. We're still refining what we want to do.
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby LRyuzakiL » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:27 pm

rickms wrote:
tazar wrote:Developers are blind and deaf to hear what the experienced players are trying to say.

We are listening to every word. Not agreeing with you does not mean we are not listening.

They have literally zero idea how their game works you can see by their clueless posts.
They are trying to push their half-arsed bug fix of a bug that never existed in the first place.


ELO is a thing. It has math behind it. Our implementation of the ELO algorithm was wrong. So to say there was never a bug in the first place is factually incorrect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

Instead of listening to what the community wants they push this.. whatever this abomination is.
But sure go ahead keep listening to players with a hundred games instead of the ones with thousands of games played.
I'll watch and laugh when you realize your new system fails miserably because problems will worsen as time goes on.


We have a responsibility to all players to create an enjoyable and fair ranked system, not just the < 1% of players that are 2k+

Just an example:
Everyone who drops to 1k elo will get matched with 0 elo players and since ur 1k elo above em u will keep losing till you go all the way down. No way getting out of elo hell with your GREAT NEW SYSTEM.


The bug is what created 0 and very low ELO players to begin with. The ELO calculation for the losing players was broken. It was subtracting too much for low ELO players and too little for high ELO players. This fix should prevent anyone from getting to extremely low ELOs, thus impacting those queued with them less.

High elos will queue at the same time and will inflate eachothers elo(bcuz of discord queues) to the point where they are impossible to catch up to.


If the ELO system is working correctly then this should lead to high elo players being evenly matched, with the cream of the crop rising to the top.

But actually im not sure if there will be a discord queue because a few people are dumb enough to start grinding elo all over again.


Fundamental misunderstanding of ELO. You should NOT be able to grind it. That's not the intent of any rating system. Playing more should not, inherently raise your ELO. Beating evenly matched/better opponents should.

If you were say 2200 as town and lost to 1800 average opponents. Then again at 2200 as town and won against 1800 average opponents. As it was before the net change for the 2200 team and 1800 team was 0. This is incorrect ELO calculation. The 2200 team should have lost ELO. They drew a 2 game series against an inferior opponent. The 1800 team should have gained because they drew against a superior opponent.

2k + users had minimal risk in losing ELO to lower ranked players before, with that lower ranked user facing large losses if they lost to that same team.

So good luck finding idiots to play ranked and keep ruining your game you are doing an awesome job.


Please keep it constructive.


Tazar is correct. You aren't listening to your good players, youre listening to amateurs who don't know what they are talking about. The fact that you are mentioning "beating evenly matched/better opponents should raise ELO" proves youre still clueless about ELO. The biggest problem, by far, with the ELO system is the way it works with difference in ELOs. If a high elo player loses when the average ELO of the other players is less, his elo crashes. If a low elo player wins with the average ELO being higher, high elo skyrockets. In case you don't see the problem, I''ll spell it out.

If someone with high ELO (lets say 2500) is playing a game in which the average ELO is about 1400, and he loses, his ELO crashes. It will easily go down 10+ points a game. He doesn't deserve that because if his teammates are about 1400 ELO and don't play right. This past weekend, I went down about 100 ELO in 10 games because every fucking game, town was absolute trash. They refused to vote people up without "proof". They thought VFR favored evils, even with town was low on numbers. Jailor wouldn't exe NE claims, thinking "its a waste of an exe." Mediums were claiming GF in fake whispers that everyone could see. I couldn't do shit to make my team win because my teammates were horribly incompetent and my ELO crashed. I was one of the few competent townies and I was punished the most for the loss? Thats absurd. On the flip side, trash noobs, such as the ones stated above, can easily get carried by high ELO teammates (when the majority aren't idiots) and their ELO can skyrocket while they do nothing to earn it.

Having this apply to just "teams" doesn't work either. Lets say town has 4 good players averaging 2400 ELO and 5 noobs averaging 1300 ELO. Their average ELO is 1788. Lets say the evils are averaging 1500 elo. Theyre above the noobs but below the good players. When town ELO is compared to evils, they are higher by 288. The system records this as "town being better" and will harshly punish town if they lose. Now, 4 good players can't do jack shit when the other 5 townies say ignorant shit like "dont vote without proof" or fake claim to be Ne so "maf doesnt hit them" or some other stupid bullshit. 4 good players cannot carry town to a win if the other 5 players do not cooperate because of their ignorance. Jailors refusing to execute ne claims, Ti not coming forward with important results, people refusing to claim on stand, etc will prevent those 4 good players from leading the town to a win. ELO is NEVER going to work with a comparison of ELO factored in for the simple fact that the game is collective and even just 1 bad townie can totally throw the game, meanwhile that 1 bad townie barely drags down the average ELO and the ELO system sees the town as "better."

Granted, this doesnt happen much, except for when the game has updates or when there aren't many people online (in which case, this crap happens constantly). However, there is still a problem. High ELO players can be very strategic, creative, anti-meta, etc to scrape out a tough win with Nk and get +1 for it, which is total nonsense. High players have no room to move up if every win is a +1 and every loss is a -10. Noobs cant help but go up if every win is a +10 and every loss is a -1. High level players are not getting the ELO they deserve to move even further from low elo players, and low elo players are inevitably gaining ELO they shouldn't have.

The season ELO has potential if done right, but based on the fact that youre talking about things like the ELO of other players effecting yours for wins/losses shows you still don't get it. For ELO to really show skill, it needs to incorporate things like early deaths. If you die within the first few nights, you should lose less ELO than the last townie to be killed. There are of course exceptions to this, such as the BG, who should get more ELO for an early death if they die by protecting someone. The point is, ELO shouldn't be based on things like the ELO of other players, but things like time of death, voting guilty/innocent on town/mafia, executing evils, etc.
Last edited by LRyuzakiL on Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby Tigerleap » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:03 am

There's still two really big problems with the ELO system, though.

1: People could lose ELO based on luck. When you're playing as a role like Jester or Amnesiac, if you get killed on the first night, you will lose the game, and it's not your fault. The new ELO system, as far as I know, does nothing to reduce the amount of ELO lost through these deaths. For example:

John Willard is the Jester, and they have the highest ELO in the game. N1, they are killed by Mafia, and they lose a crap-load of ELO.

2: Often times players are matched with people with much lower ELO. When you are teamed with people of lower skill, you are more likely to lose, so it's unfair that you lose the most ELO. For example:

John Proctor is a Townie, and they have the highest ELO in the game, but the rest of the Townies are lower ELO players. The other Townies are really bad at the game; despite John Proctor's wishes, they refuse to vote up scummy players, they lynch other Townies despite there being no counter-claims, and they put pressure on confirmed Townies. In the end, the game is a wreck, and Town loses. John Proctor loses more ELO than anyone else because of other people's lack of skill. In conclusion, ELO was a system developed for 1v1 games, not team-based games, and therefore it's unfair to blame John Proctor for failing to carry a team that refused to be carried.

See what I mean? I get that BMG doesn't want people climbing that high up in ELO, but discouraging the most experienced players from playing Ranked will lead to many experienced players quitting. I do agree that we should try to even out ELO so that more players are pushed towards the middle of the bell curve, but if there's no experienced players in the Ranked system, what's the point of ELO? In our current system, even some higher ELO players get matched with newbies and game-throwers, and clumping every player towards the middle in such an unfair way certainly won't help.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

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Re: State of Ranked

Postby Lexiam » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:18 am

With my elo 1191, I shall play ranked again when elo resets. I stayed away from it cause you lose more than you gained.

Everyone can expect me to be on ranked when elo resets :)
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Re: State of Ranked

Postby rickms » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:01 pm

LRyuzakiL wrote:Tazar is correct. You aren't listening to your good players, youre listening to amateurs who don't know what they are talking about.


This change was not about any particular groups complaint. This was purely a correction of flawed math in our ELO calculations.

The fact that you are mentioning "beating evenly matched/better opponents should raise ELO" proves youre still clueless about ELO. The biggest problem, by far, with the ELO system is the way it works with difference in ELOs. If a high elo player loses when the average ELO of the other players is less, his elo crashes. If a low elo player wins with the average ELO being higher, high elo skyrockets. In case you don't see the problem, I''ll spell it out.


"A player's Elo rating is represented by a number which increases or decreases depending on the outcome of games between rated players. After every game, the winning player takes points from the losing one. The difference between the ratings of the winner and loser determines the total number of points gained or lost after a game. In a series of games between a high-rated player and a low-rated player, the high-rated player is expected to score more wins. If the high-rated player wins, then only a few rating points will be taken from the low-rated player. However, if the lower rated player scores an upset win, many rating points will be transferred. The lower rated player will also gain a few points from the higher rated player in the event of a draw. This means that this rating system is self-correcting. A player whose rating is too low should, in the long run, do better than the rating system predicts, and thus gain rating points until the rating reflects their true playing strength."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

If someone with high ELO (lets say 2500) is playing a game in which the average ELO is about 1400, and he loses, his ELO crashes. It will easily go down 10+ points a game. He doesn't deserve that because if his teammates are about 1400 ELO and don't play right. This past weekend, I went down about 100 ELO in 10 games because every fucking game, town was absolute trash. They refused to vote people up without "proof". They thought VFR favored evils, even with town was low on numbers. Jailor wouldn't exe NE claims, thinking "its a waste of an exe." Mediums were claiming GF in fake whispers that everyone could see. I couldn't do shit to make my team win because my teammates were horribly incompetent and my ELO crashed. I was one of the few competent townies and I was punished the most for the loss? Thats absurd. On the flip side, trash noobs, such as the ones stated above, can easily get carried by high ELO teammates (when the majority aren't idiots) and their ELO can skyrocket while they do nothing to earn it.

Having this apply to just "teams" doesn't work either. Lets say town has 4 good players averaging 2400 ELO and 5 noobs averaging 1300 ELO. Their average ELO is 1788. Lets say the evils are averaging 1500 elo. Theyre above the noobs but below the good players. When town ELO is compared to evils, they are higher by 288. The system records this as "town being better" and will harshly punish town if they lose. Now, 4 good players can't do jack shit when the other 5 townies say ignorant shit like "dont vote without proof" or fake claim to be Ne so "maf doesnt hit them" or some other stupid bullshit. 4 good players cannot carry town to a win if the other 5 players do not cooperate because of their ignorance. Jailors refusing to execute ne claims, Ti not coming forward with important results, people refusing to claim on stand, etc will prevent those 4 good players from leading the town to a win. ELO is NEVER going to work with a comparison of ELO factored in for the simple fact that the game is collective and even just 1 bad townie can totally throw the game, meanwhile that 1 bad townie barely drags down the average ELO and the ELO system sees the town as "better."

If you want to argue that ELO in general is not a good rating system for ToS, that's an entirely different discussion than the one that's being had here, which is the now correct implementation of the ELO system.

Granted, this doesn't happen much, except for when the game has updates or when there aren't many people online (in which case, this crap happens constantly). However, there is still a problem. High ELO players can be very strategic, creative, anti-meta, etc to scrape out a tough win with Nk and get +1 for it, which is total nonsense. High players have no room to move up if every win is a +1 and every loss is a -10. Noobs cant help but go up if every win is a +10 and every loss is a -1. High level players are not getting the ELO they deserve to move even further from low elo players, and low elo players are inevitably gaining ELO they shouldn't have.



You can't look at it on an individual game basis. You have to look at the overall picture.... on average everyone is gonna be in the same boat with the frequency they encounter the above matches.

ELO was not designed for this type of game, no one debates that, but given the unique and random nature of ToS ranked play, there is no system that really fits it well. (If someone knows of one, please share). So we start with base ELO and then make modifications to it to fit our game. We are always open to suggestions on better ways to calculate ranked. Constructive suggestions.
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